[Reader-list] 'exporting jobs'

[Curt Gambetta]

In response to Monica's posting... this is something I
have been really fascinated with lately. I haven't
heard this level of rhetoric over the "national
economy" in the United States in years. I am including
excerpts from 'Lou Dobbs Tonight,' a program on CNN,
which I think discusses some of the debates happening
in the media over the issue of "exporting jobs" (it
makes it sounds so simple!). It has been a huge issue
in the Democratic campaigns. I thought the first
discussion was especially noteworthy, because Dobbs
really lost his cool on TV and made an impassioned
plea for a responsibility to the "national economy."
As he puts it: "This is not just a market place. It's
a nation. Right?" 

I think it is also significant that in debates on the
rights of illegal immigrants, illegal immigrants are
defended on the basis of their work for the national
economy: they and other marginalized groups (even gays
and lesbians!) are said to be equal because they are
"hardworking Americans." Perhaps my memory is short,
but I cannot remember this kind of appeal to the
nation (and working FOR the nation) as a validation of
rights!

Thanks Ravikant/Shuddha for the WSF postings as well.
There was little to nothing reported here in the
United States. The WSF was inadequately covered in
even some of the more popular alternative media like
the radio program Democracy Now... it was strange, and
unfortunate.

-Curt

-------

Transcript excerpts from “Lou Dobbs Tonight” (not in
chronological order)
------
Aired February 5, 2004 - 18:00   ET
Well my next guest here hosted a conference last month
to help American companies shift those jobs overseas.
It was a seminar to teach American corporate
executives how to ship those jobs overseas. He says
globalization will ultimately help us all. That
offshore outsourcing is not to blame for the loss of
jobs in this country. Now joined by Atul Vashistha. He
says it's a misconception. And welcome.

And how is it a misconception? 

ATUL VASHISTHA, CEO & FOUNDER NEOIT: Thanks, Lou.

It's a misconception because if you look at what
offshore outsourcing is doing for America it is
actually helping American companies stay competitive.
It is helping them lower the cost of products and
services. And actually it is improving the buying
power in nation. 

DOBBS: How does it -- I think I understand, if you
will, the premise of what you are saying. But when we
watch and as we document here, literally hundreds of
thousands of jobs being shipped to cheap overseas
labor markets, those jobs are replaced typically by
salaries that are 30 percent lower and there is no
migration up the value chain, it's down the value
chain. So, how does that help America? 

VASHISTHA: There's no denying that, in the short term
we have a problem. I think the industry, the
government and the companies are still not doing
enough. What I can tell you is that our clients are
starting to do things to combat that. 

DOBBS: Like what? 

VASHISTHA: For example, some of the things our clients
are doing, they are actually putting money into
retraining. We cannot be competitive in this new
global economy if our workers don't continue to update
their skills, even if your are a software programmer. 

DOBBS: Let me ask you this, engineering, software
programming, have unemployment rates, approaching
double digits in this country. What in the world are
you going to train them for? 

VASHISTHA: Lou, technology as you know is changing
every year. 

DOBBS: I do, indeed. 

VASHISTHA: If four years ago you were doing HTML, or
Web based programming, you need to do a lot of
different things today, because that technology is old
now. 

DOBBS: Right. 

VASHISTHA: I did my engineering degree and my MBA, I
went back to Harvard last year to educate myself
again. And I think that's something we absolutely have
to do. 

DOBBS: That's boffo (ph). But let's talk about those
hundreds of thousands of jobs -- people glibly talk
about training. Men and women who have trained
themselves in a variety of skills who have a variety
of educational pursuits and degrees, I hear people
start talking about training as if that's a panacea. 

What jobs should they train themselves for? We are
shipping high value jobs overseas to India, to the
Phillipines, to Ireland, to Poland, to Russia, for
crying out loud. What in the world are we supposed to
train them to do? 

Now, I understand the profit motive, as a matter of
fact, no one is more pro business, pro American free
enterprise than I am, but I'm also pro American
worker. What in the world -- you talk about pain (ph),
we're seeing evidence of it every day. 

VASHISTHA: But Lou, if we don't focus on our
investment on training we can't just put up our
borders and imagine that these job will stay. In fact,
companies are going bankrupt because they are not
taking advantage of these lower co-markets. 

DOBBS: Because somebody else is, is that right? 

VASHISTHA: Right, exactly. So there's...

DOBBS: So what you end up is, a race to the bottom as
it's been styled. Because if one company is go over to
India to get a job, to pay a salary that is a tenth of
what they would be paying in this country. They are
forced to compete. Is not free trade. This is not
comparative advantage, as envisioned by David Ricardo,
this is the wholesale exportation of American wealth. 

VASHISTHA: Lou, the difference here is that this is a
global economy. 

DOBBS: I understand that. But these are old saws (ph)
-- globalization has been a fact since 1987. 

VASHISTHA: Right, Lou, take a look at what happened to
the buying power in our country. It's significantly
gone up. And I know in the last 2 years, 3 years... 

DOBBS: Consumption power in this country for the last
three decades have declined over the past three years
has actually fallen even more dramatically than that
average over three decade. It is quite the inverse. 

VASHISTHA: Lou, you know, I'm sorry, I beg to differ. 

DOBBS: Please. 

VASHISTHA: If you take a look at the buying power of
our country. Let's take a look at the last two
decades. We created 22 million excess jobs than we're
destroyed (ph) in this country. This is a Bureau of
Labor Statistic numbers for the last two decades. 

DOBBS: We created 22 million jobs during the course of
the Clinton administration, 1992 to 2000. VASHISTHA:
Right. So we created surplus jobs. I'm talking about
economy changed, we actually created more jobs than we
lost. At the same time the buying power in this
country...

DOBBS: What sort of evident 22 million jobs. 

VASHISTHA: Right -- just so what is happening today is
I think this is the next evolution in the global
economy. 

DOBBS: That's wonderful. Great evolution, if you
believe that the United States should be shipping its
wealth, its jobs, standard of living and quality of
life to third world countries where there are no
regulations for environment, no regulations for labor,
no standards that is a requirement here in this
country. 

The logical extrapolation it seems to me, Atul, is
that if we are going to compete fairly, with fair
trade and a globalized market, it seems to me that
India, the Phillipines, Mexico, a Central American
nation should have the same standards, otherwise we're
competing simply on the price of labor. 

VASHISTHA: Lou, I absolutely agree with you. In fact,
if you look at the service industry which we
participate in, these companies are paying higher
average wages than the local counterparts. I mean so
if you look at what is happening in India or China. 

DOBBS: You're saying American companies are page
higher wages in other countries than native companies.


VASHISTHA: American companies and the local companies
that participate in this business. So companies like
Infosys or Whipper (ph), or all these companies in
India they are paying better wages than the average
people get in that country. 

DOBBS: The average Indian company. 

VASHISTHA: Absolutely. 

DOBBS: But why in the world do ten million Americans
who are unemployed in this country, give a damn? 

VASHISTHA: Well, Lou, here's why they give a damn,
because if we don't do this, it we don't continue to
innovate and let our companies be successful, we will
lose more jobs. 

DOBBS: Wait a minute. You are not innovating. You are
not being more efficient. You are talking about hiring
cheaper labor. Those are only code words for cheap
labor. McKenzie did a study, as you're aware of, in
what is the bulk of the gain for American companies? 

VASHISTHA: Well, it's...

DOBBS: All in labor savings. 

VASHISTHA: A bulk. DOBBS: The bulk, as in 70 percent
of it. 

VASHISTHA: Right. Lou, what happens to the money that
comes back? 

DOBBS: What money?

VASHISTHA: The money that is being repatriated back to
this country? The savings that happen. 

DOBBS: We should ship all our jobs then, because it
sounds like a highly profitable enterprise. 

VASHISTHA: Lou, it's easy to take a look at this...

(LAUGHTER)

DOBBS: Atul, I understand your position. I understand
the profit motive, but corporations have a stake in
this country do they not? 

VASHISHTHA: I absolutely agree.

DOBBS: And they have a stake in the community, in
investing in their people. They have a responsibility,
because they are the beneficiary of this national
American economy. 

VASHISTHA: Lou, I absolutely agree with you. In fact,
one of the things that has not happened yet is the
industry, the associations and the companies have not
come together to address the displaced workers. Now I
can tell you, like I was telling you before, some of
our companies are doing that. Apart from training...

DOBBS: That's a wonderful paternal outlook. But what I
would much prefer to hear business people, men and
women in this country running corporation and folks
like you trying to make a dollar, you have a
responsibility to this national economy. This is not
just a market place. It's a nation. Right?

VASHISTHA: Absolutely. 

DOBBS: I would love to have you come back and talk
some more, we're out of time. Will you come back?
We'll have more discussion. 

VASHISTHA: Absolutely, Lou. Thank you. 

DOBBS: Atul, thank you very much.
-------
Aired February 11, 2004 - 18:00   ET
DOBBS: Good evening. 

Tonight, the White House is on the defensive, even
before the Democratic Party has settled on a
presidential nominee. Despite a firestorm of
criticism, the administration today maintained its
claim that the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap
overseas labor market is good for the economy. As for
lawmakers on Capitol Hill, both Democratic and
Republican, they blasted the White House. And one
Republican lawmaker tonight is calling for the
president's chief economic adviser to resign. 

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) 

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On
Capitol Hill, a new wave of anger at the Bush White
House for its claim that outsourcing of jobs to cheap
overseas labor markets is actually good for the
American economy. 

SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: The economic
report of the president signed by the president says
that the export of American jobs is just fine, doesn't
matter, no problem. In fact, it's a good thing. He is
flat-out, dead wrong. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks to this president, America
now has a new No. 1 export, jobs. 

VILES: Those Senate Democrats wrote to the president,
asking him to repudiate those comments supporting
outsourcing. Senator Hillary Clinton introduced
legislation that would put the Senate on record
opposing the outsourcing of American jobs. 

And, in the House, Republican Don Manzullo of Illinois
called for the resignation of the man who set
outsourcing is a -- quote -- "good thing," Gregory
Mankiw, who chairs the White House Council of Economic
Advisers. 

REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Mankiw is talking
something differently than what the president believes
and what the president is doing. So, you can't have an
inconsistency in sending that type of a message out to
the people that are losing their jobs. So the best
thing is for Mankiw to step aside very quietly and for
-- to have one less economist give a theory as to why
we don't have jobs in America. 

VILES: And in a House hearing, Fed Chairman Alan
Greenspan was peppered with unusually aggressive
questions and comments on outsourcing. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, to add insult to injury, Mr.
Chairman, we have this outsourcing. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now that we have exported our
manufacturing jobs, now that we are exporting our
high-tech jobs and our service jobs, what areas are
left for us to devote our productivity toward?

VILES: Greenspan, who is known for his political
skills, generally dodged questions on outsourcing,
saying it's the surge in productivity, not
outsourcing, that is hurting job growth. 

(END VIDEOTAPE) 

VILES: And the White House today defended Mankiw,
saying the calls for his resignation is -- quote --
"laughable," because the economic team he leads is --
quote -- "doing a great job." 

Lou, this is not just one aide to the president. The
president signed this document and it's a very strong
statement supporting outsourcing. 

DOBBS: And Scott McClellan is just simply wrong. It's
not laughable, because a lot of critics on Capitol
Hill are certainly not laughing, including the speaker
of the House.

Pete, thank you very much. The speaker of the House of
Representatives doesn't think the administration's top
economist is doing a great job at all. In fact, late
today, Dennis Hastert blasted Gregory Mankiw's views
on outsourcing American jobs and released a statement
saying, quote -- "I understand that Mr. Mankiw is a
brilliant economic theorist, but his theory fails a
basic test of real economics. An economy suffers when
jobs disappear." 

By the way, we've invited Gregory Mankiw, the chairman
of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, to
join us for the last two nights here to talk about the
issue of outsourcing. He has declined. Tonight, we
want to assure him, the invitation remains open. 

Outrage over the White House's support of outsourcing
American jobs to cheap overseas labor market is also
coming from the Democratic presidential candidates. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They
said that shipping jobs, American jobs, overseas is
good for America. 

(BOOING)

KERRY: And I -- I think you've answered the challenge.
Let them tell that to a 45-year-old worker with three
kids who doesn't have a job, who has seen the factory
loss, who has seen their job gone, and who has nowhere
to turn. 

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:
There are people in America, in one America, who are
making a fortune by shipping the jobs of the other
America someplace else. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Senators Kerry and Edwards making those
comments, as they finished in first and second place,
respectively, in the Tennessee and Virginia primaries.


The wins give Senator Kerry now 516 delegates, nearly
a quarter of those needed to win the Democratic
presidential nomination. Former Vermont Governor
Howard Dean is second, with 182 delegates. Today, he
went on the attack against Senator Kerry. Dean called
him part of -- quote -- "the corrupt political culture
of Washington" -- end quote -- and the lesser of two
evils, as compared to President Bush. A spokesman for
Senator Kerry called the Dean attack an act of
desperation. 

And General Wesley Clark today ended his campaign,
after finishing in third place in both primaries.
General Clark promised to continue campaigning for
Democratic causes during the election. 

Joining me now from Washington for the Republican view
of the Democratic primary contest and the broader
assault against President Bush and the White House is
the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Ed
Gillespie. 

Good to have you with us. 

ED GILLESPIE, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN:
Good to be with you, Lou. Thanks for having me on. 

DOBBS: This is a remarkable day, as the White House is
under assault from several quarters, on the
president's military service some 30 years ago as a
member of the National Guard, on the issues of weapons
of mass destruction, Iraq intelligence leading up --
intelligence on Iraq leading up to the war, on
outsourcing. 

This White House, to this point, has been considered
pretty savvy, Ed. They don't look too savvy. 

GILLESPIE: Well, look, Lou, the fact is that when you
have people making charges against the president that
are completely unfounded when you look at the facts --
for example, for the Clark campaign to say that the
president is a deserter, desertion is a crime
punishable by death in the military for military
desertion. 

For the chairman of the Democratic Party to say the
president was AWOL, which is a felony punishable by
imprisonment, and they are just flat wrong, as was
made clear again yesterday, when the pay stubs were
produced. The president served honorably in the
National Guard. National Guard service is honorable.
It is military service. 

And the fact is that you can't just make things up.
You know, these Democrats of entitled to their own
opinion. Terry McAuliffe is entitled to his own
opinion. But he is not entitled to his own facts. And
the fact is that President Bush did serve honorably,
as he had said. And it's wrong to suggest otherwise. 

When it comes to the issue of the jobs, look, we have
got to create more jobs in our economy. And the
president's policies are resulting in that. We saw
113,000 jobs added to payroll last month, a growth
rate of 4 percent in the last quarter, 8.2 percent in
the quarter before that. We're seeing gains in the
stock market, which are pumping up our 401(k) and
college funds and retirement funds. 

And the policies that Senator Kerry and other
Democrats advocate of raising taxes on our economy are
going to reverse those gains and are going to hinder
job creation. And, in fact, having a high tax economy
is only going to result in more jobs going overseas.
And that's a mistake in policy. And the president is
right and they are wrong. So we welcome this debate. 

DOBBS: Well, the debate now is focused on the
outsourcing of those jobs, the exporting of those
jobs, to cheap overseas labor markets. My goodness,
the chairman of the president's Council of Economic
Advisers endorsing the idea -- the document has the
president's signature on it, Ed. Dennis Hastert, the
speaker of the House, criticizing him, Congressman
Manzullo calling for his resignation. 

The Democratic candidates, one of whom, most likely,
Senator Kerry, to represent the Democratic Party,
attacking the president on these issues. What in the
world is going on here? 

GILLESPIE: Well, Lou, I haven't seen this report. I
have seen the news accounts of it. And all I know is
this, that, if we're going to create jobs in this
economy, the president's six-point plan for job
creation is the way to do it. 

He's vigorously out there every day working to make
sure every American who wants a job can find a job.
And his policies are the ones that are going to
continue to foster economic recovery in this country.
And raising taxes and increasing regulation and
allowing for these lawsuits that drive up costs of
goods and services and close down doctor's offices and
to engage in the kinds of policies or to support the
kind of policies that the Democrats propose are going
to result in more job loss, not more job creation. I
guarantee it. 

DOBBS: Well, Ed, let me ask you, as the chairman of
the RNC, the document signed by the president, written
by the president's chairman of the Council of Economic
Advisers, saying -- quote, unquote -- "The basic
economic forces behind the transactions are the same,"
that is, exporting U.S. jobs to overseas cheap labor
markets. They are the same. 

"When a good or service is provided more cheaply
abroad, it makes sense to import it than to provide it
domestically." We have this issue. We have the issue
of free trade. We have a half-trillion dollar current
account deficit. These facts are representative of
pain in middle America. Hardworking men and women in
this country are getting hurt. What does the
Republican National Committee want to say about that? 

GILLESPIE: Well, what I want to say is -- and I'm not
an economist. I was lucky to get my way out of
college, let alone go to any kind of graduate school. 

But I do understand the notion of competitive
advantage. And, look, that's fine as long as we are
creating high-paying jobs in our economy. And the fact
is that we are seeing now economic growth that is
going to create -- and we are seeing the creation of
high-paying jobs in our economy. 

That's the answer, to make sure that we're doing all
we can to foster this economic growth, to make sure
that every American who wants a job can have a job,
and, at the same time, that we're doing what we need
to do to keep the markets up and rising, as we have
seen for the first time since 1999, because that
results in -- look, Lou, I have got three children. We
put our money into a college fund every month. And
it's been going up as a result of the president's
policies. 

It's not the 85 bucks a month we put in there every
month. It's the fact that the market has grown as a
result of the dividend tax relief, the capital gains
tax relief, the lower rates in general, and the
spurred investment that's resulted from those
policies. Reversing those policies would be a critical
mistake. It would not benefit middle America at all.
In fact, it would punish middle Americans. 

DOBBS: Ed Gillespie, we thank you very much for being
with us. 

GILLESPIE: Thank you, Lou. Appreciate it.
----------
Aired January 27, 2004 - 18:00   ET
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

DOBBS: As we have reported extensively on this show
and continue to do, high-quality American jobs are
being shipped to cheap overseas labor markets at a
staggering rate. 

Tonight, in our special report, "Exporting America," a
disturbing report on one industry that's turning to
cheap foreign labor and what that decision could end
up costing American citizens. 

Kitty Pilgrim reports on the exportation of the legal
profession. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) 

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First,
it was manual labor, then service jobs. Now it's legal
work being shipped overseas to cut costs. 

JOHN MCCARTHY, FORRESTER RESEARCH: You're not going to
see lawyers, you know, using video-conferencing to
argue a case from India in a courtroom in the United
States. But there are the back-office- type
operations, the research-intensive tasks. 

PILGRIM: Market research firm Forrester Research
predicts, in the next 11 years, some 8 percent of law
jobs will shift to low-cost countries. Paralegal work
and work done by junior lawyers is particularly
vulnerable to offshoring. Experts say large legal
firms, who pay young associates high salaries, are
looking to cut costs. DAVID WILKINS, HARVARD
UNIVERSITY: The more work that is taken away from
them, either by being given to paralegals or sending
it offshore to contract professionals in places like
India, the less opportunity there will be for young
lawyers to be trained. 

PILGRIM: Richard Maltz, active in the legal
profession, says that safeguards have to be put in
place. 

RICHARD MALTZ, ASSN. OF THE BAR OF THE CITY OF NEW
YORK: The quality of the work has to be supervised.
You have to make sure that nonlawyers aren't
performing legal work. And also very important for
lawyers is confidentiality. 

PILGRIM: Legal research and publishing has already
discovered the cost-cutting benefits. This young
woman, who asked us to disguise her appearance and
voice, is a lawyer for West. West is a legal
information company based in Minnesota and has a pilot
program where some work is done in India. She says
people in the office are concerned. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're trying to really cut
costs, you know. How is this going to affect us? Is
this going to be something that, later on down the
line, they're going to be looking to cut our jobs,
too? 

PILGRIM: She wonders, with this trend, who will be
willing to invest time and tuition to earn a legal
degree?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, some firms get around the issue by
saying that foreign legal teams are supervised by
U.S.-based lawyers. Experts say, legal clients, for
now, are just looking at the reduced fees they are
charged -- Lou. 

DOBBS: The total number of jobs that are projected to
be lost? 

PILGRIM: It will be 8 percent by 2015. 

DOBBS: Of lawyers. 

PILGRIM: Eight percent of all legal jobs -- yes, by
Forrester, which is a shocking number. 

DOBBS: Well, not as shocking as manufacturing and a
number of other jobs, high-value jobs, in this
country. 

Kitty, thank you very much. 

Coming up next here, there is still time to vote in
the nation's first primary. We'll be heading back to
New Hampshire. We'll be talking with three of the
country's top political journalists. And some
Republicans have now banded together against President
Bush's immigration proposal.

And prosecutors today, in the first day of the Martha
Stewart trial, say she lied. The defense says it's all
speculation. We'll have the latest on the case and a
great deal more. 

Please stay with us. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
-------
Aired February 4, 2004 - 18:00   ET
DOBBS: My first guest tonight is among those at the
forefront of the battle to keep the jobs of
hardworking Americans in this country. She's the
governor of the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm.
The governor was elected in 2002. She is the first
female governor in the state's 166-year history.
Governor Granholm joins us tonight from East Lansing,
Michigan.

Good to have you with us.

GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), MICHIGAN: Thank you. 

DOBBS: The battle to keep jobs in this country, what
have you been able to do that's effective in stopping
the exporting of these American jobs? 

GRANHOLM: Yes, I mean, as a governor, it's difficult
to impact international trade policy.

We hear all the time that the states have got to be a
low-cost environment. And we have done everything we
possibly can to achieve that. We've tried to clear out
regulatory hurdles, tried to create one-stop shops for
permitting, reduce permitting time. We have worked
with the unions to achieve low-cost -- lower-cost
labor. 

I'll give you an example of this, Lou, is in
Greenville, Michigan, a couple weeks ago, a firm
called Electrolux, which just decided to move to
Mexico, had 2,700 jobs at stake in a town of 8,000
people. And we went to them and offered them zero
taxes for 20 years, an entirely new plant, huge labor
concessions to the tune of $32 million a year. And it
was not enough to compete with a country paying $1.57
an hour. 

How do we as governors and as an entire country
compete with companies that are paying a fraction of
our minimum wage? It is a very difficult question. And
this is why, in this election year, I think it's very
important to pose the question on both sides of the
aisle to these candidates and say, what are you going
to do to stand up to make this playing field for our
American businesses and jobs? 

DOBBS: Well, obviously, Governor, it's becoming
increasingly an important issue in this campaign. It
has not moved to the forefront, I think you and I
would agree.

But at least Senator John Kerry, whom I know you
support in the race for the Democratic Party
nomination, General Clark, General Wesley Clark,
Senator John Edwards, and certainly Dennis Kucinich
have all focused on these issues, at least at the
margin. 

What do you think, from your perspective in the state
of Michigan, where you have lost about 20 percent of
the manufacturing jobs over the course of, what, the
last three to four years...

GRANHOLM: Three years. 

DOBBS: What do you think can be done? 

GRANHOLM: We have lost about 300,000 jobs. And 170,000
of them are in the manufacturing sector. 

What we need to do is several things. In fact, I
pulled together labor and business manufacturers and
we came up with a consensus agenda. Clearly, we've got
to make sure that we go after those international
trade policies that the United States has been lax on,
for example, allowing the manipulation of currency,
whether it's in China or Japan, for example,
protecting our companies intellectual property when
they do trade abroad, for example, going after the
nontariff trade barriers that have been placed up by
other countries. 

(CROSSTALK) 

DOBBS: Governor, you just said the dirty word. You
said tariff. You are going to be criticized as a dirty
protectionist, a retrograde. 

(CROSSTALK) 

GRANHOLM: No, no, what I said was, we should go after
other countries who are placing nontariff barriers in
the way of our exports. 

So I'm not interested in being a protectionist, but I
am interested in leveling this playing field. And one
of the ways we have to do this is to sign trade
agreements that have core labor and environmental
standards and enforceable protections in them. I
think, frankly, any member of Congress that votes in
favor of another trade agreement that does not level
the playing field, that does not require core and
enforceable environmental and labor standards is
really in jeopardy of losing their election. 

This has become such a huge issue in Michigan and in
other manufacturing states, that this election, this
presidential election, I hope, and with the help of
shows like yours, we will really bring it to the
forefront. 

DOBBS: Oh, Governor, there are no shows like ours.
There are no states like Michigan. The fact is...

GRANHOLM: That's true. 

(LAUGHTER) 

GRANHOLM: Excellent show and an excellent state. 

(LAUGHTER) 

DOBBS: Governor, the fact is that, this weekend, you
have a primary, an important primary, what, 128
delegates at stake. 

GRANHOLM: Yes. 

DOBBS: And I know you support John Kerry. Give us your
best sense as to how important this issue will be in
determining the outcome of that primary election? 

GRANHOLM: Oh, this is the No. 1 issue in our state.
And it's not the economy, stupid. It's the jobs,
stupid.

And as you alluded to in the segment prior to this,
this has not been a jobless recovery. It's been a
job-loss recovery in Michigan. And that is not
acceptable. This is why this is the No. 1 issue here.
And for us, we need a president who is going to stand
up for Michigan jobs and one that is likely to be
elected, a candidate that is likely to be elected.

John Kerry has a very good manufacturing platform. And
he will help the automotive industry as well, which,
of course, is our main industry. 

DOBBS: I understand. And I think it's important that
we point out, so does General Wesley Clark, Senator
John Edwards, and Dennis Kucinich.

GRANHOLM: Yes. 

There's a number of good platforms. You are right. And
the Democrats, many of them, have very good
manufacturing platforms. John Kerry just happens to
have the one that is the longest. I'm aware that he
has had his longer than any of the others and a
specific one relative to autos.

(CROSSTALK) 

DOBBS: Governor, we thank you very much for being with
us here tonight. Come back soon.

GRANHOLM: Thank you. You bet.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's
poll. The question: How confident are you that either
political party will work effectively in your best
interest on this issue, very, somewhat, a little, or
not at all? Cast your vote, please, at CNN.com/Lou.
We'll have results for you later in the broadcast.
Coming up next, explosive testimony today from the
government's star witness in the trial of Martha
Stewart. We'll have a live report for you from Lower
Manhattan. 

And two highly anticipated rulings on gay marriage in
this country -- those stories and a great deal more
just ahead. 

Stay with us. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


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