[Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace, review of film'Girlfriend'

[Nitin Karani]

asthana,

the point is i am happy with the way i draw my conclusions!

and now that you have clarified too, i believe the four of us seem to at
least veer towards the idea that there is little or no connection between
child abuse and sexual orientation. No?

cheers,
nitin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Asthana, Rahul" <Rahul.Asthana at CIBC.com>
To: "'Geeta Patel'" <geeta.patel at verizon.net>; "NITIN KARANI"
<nkarani at hotmail.com>; <zest_india at yahoo.co.in>
Cc: <reader-list at mail.sarai.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace, review of
film'Girlfriend'


> Geeta\Nitin,
> If I came off implying that homosexuality is an aberration,which is caused
> by child abuse,it was never my intention.Its just how Nitin seemed to
arrive
> at the conclusion that he did,that bothered me.
> Nitin,the allusion to coke\pepsi was wrong and I realize that in
hindsight.I
> was just trying to make a point.I hope you realize it.
> Geeta, i agree with you that the study of child abuse should contain a
> sampling of the whole society,so that how it manifests itself can be
> investigated.It may or may not result in a better understanding of
> homosexuality from an academic point of view.After all, the matters of the
> psyche are always going to hold some mystery for us,aren't they?The least
we
> can do is try to be as objective as possible.
> By the way,you make a lot of good points.
> Thanks
> Rahul
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net
> [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]On Behalf Of Geeta Patel
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:39 PM
> To: NITIN KARANI; Asthana, Rahul; zest_india at yahoo.co.in
> Cc: reader-list at mail.sarai.net
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace, review of
> film'Girlfriend'
>
>
> Dear Rahul:
> I think one should begin by doing a study on how straight people became
> straight, turned straighter and stayed straight. There is nothing natural
in
> heterosexuality as a pure form. Because if one begins to analyze the
> supports available for straight people, one realizes very quickly that
being
> straight seems to require a lot of help, regular financial and legal aid
> from constitutions, governments, insurance firms -- the list goes on.  And
> if heterosexuality was so easy to come by and stay in (without any of
those
> quick glances at beautiful men or women or trannys or hijras   or .. that
> direct desire away from heterosexuality) why the obsessive need to help
it,
> ensure it, protect it, hold onto it. Nivedita Menon has a great piece on
> this in The Indian Express in January of this year.  Janet Halley, a legal
> scholar writing in the US, also finds that  judicial opinions on  queer
> matters spend inordinate time on remarking on the instability of
> heterosexuality, and on its reproduction. (this is a simplified version of
> Halley's work, but sufficient for this task)
> In India, the British gave conventional forms of heterosexuality a big
push
> and lots of legal help beginning in the early 19th century, which I and
many
> other researchers have come upon when looking at the questions of passing
> property onto other people.  Of course those issues, of inheritance
lineage,
> are often looked at as something other than a mandate and push towards
> seemingly quotidian forms of heterosexuality.
>
> So, I think that encountering a film like "Girlfriend"  should not only
make
> audiences ask questions about lesbians, but also about their others, the
> supposedly straight people that ostensibly live their sexual lives without
> question. Hence one could easily ask the question: How many straight
people
> derive the forms of  their sexual desires through, from and with sexual
> abuse, including abuse that violated their childhoods?  That might form
the
> nucleus of a truely valuable study.
>
> And as for Pinky Virani's book--one would know that abuse is about the
> violent and subtle enactments of power, not about the sexual inclinations
of
> a person, if one had actually worked with people dealing with sexual or
> physical abuse.  And conversion is not the important issue when addressing
> or taking on abuse--  the construction of the abused person by an abuser
is
> rarely so simple, i.e. as potential convert. Abusers come in all forms,
> ages, shapes and sizes, as do the abused, as does the specifics of the
> violence.  I tried reading Pinky Virani's book when I was helping design
> programs to address abuse and was so irritated by it I was unable to
finish
> it.
>
> Geeta Patel
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> > > Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online.
> > http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony/
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "NITIN KARANI" <nkarani at hotmail.com>
> To: <Rahul.Asthana at CIBC.com>; <zest_india at yahoo.co.in>
> Cc: <reader-list at mail.sarai.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:42 AM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace,review of
> film'Girlfriend'
>
>
> > mr. asthana,
> >
> > i have already said it's a subject that needs to be treated seriously,
> > instead of repeating myths!
> >
> > as to the nature of my interaction with other gay people, please do not
> try
> > to speculate or trivialize it.
> >
> > nitin
> >
> >
> > From: "Asthana, Rahul" <Rahul.Asthana at CIBC.com>
> > To: "'Nitin Karani'" <nkarani at hotmail.com>,shivam
<zest_india at yahoo.co.in>
> > CC: reader-list at mail.sarai.net
> > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace, review of
> > film'Girlfriend'
> > Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:27:40 -0400
> >
> > Nitin,
> > "in all my 33 years, i haven't
> > come across any guy who said he 'became' gay because of sexual abuse."
> > Did the question answer session go this way?
> > "Q.Do you prefer Coke over Pepsi[Yes/No]""Q.Are you gay because you were
> > abused as a child?[Yes/No]"
> > I would think neither the question nor the answer are that simple or
> > straightforward.It is very difficult for anybody to "say " that they are
> > "this" because "that" happened to them when they were young.
> > It would need some sort of psychological suggestion(from someone who is
> > trained to doing that) and unravelling to get the answer.Another way
could
> > be extensive data gathering and then trying to find a correlation.This
> issue
> > deserves more serious analysis.
> > Thanks
> > Rahul
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net
> > [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]On Behalf Of Nitin Karani
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:45 PM
> > To: shivam
> > Cc: reader-list at mail.sarai.net
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace, review of
> > film 'Girlfriend'
> > Importance: High
> >
> >
> > shivam,
> >
> > if pinki virani actually wrote that, it's ludicrous! (it sounds like the
> > myth about hijras--that they kidnap and castrate children!)
> >
> > READ MY LIPS: we (gay people) are not on a 'conversion'/proselytization
> > agenda!
> >
> > about the other more common myth that sexual abuse in childhood 'causes'
> > homosexuality, it's again just that--a myth! in all my 33 years, i
haven't
> > come across any guy who said he 'became' gay because of sexual abuse.
> agreed
> > not everyone would have been honest whether they have faced abuse, but
> it's
> > safe to say the incidence is low. in all these years of interaction,
> on-line
> > and offline sexual abuse has never been an issue--and it's not like the
> gay
> > communities have some kind of collective amnesia about their childhood
or
> > taboo about the topic! yes, i ahve come across just a couple of guys who
> > were abused but even they are clear in their mind that abuse was not the
> > reason for 'turning' gay. (i can't claim to speak on behalf of my
lesbian
> > sisters, but i am sure things are no different for them).
> >
> > and i remember reading about a survey in what was then the Times's
groups
> > 'Metropolis on Saturday' about a survey which said that in cases of
abuse,
> > the perpetrators were more often heterosexuals! (could this be the
reason
> > for the 'disdain' on the issue??)
> >
> > I haven't read her book, but i wonder if Ms. Virani actually did any
> > research! or like razdan, set out to write on issues they know nothing
> about
> > and don't care to find out!
> >
> > best,
> > nitin karani
> > bombay
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "shivam" <zest_india at yahoo.co.in>
> > To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: From Fire into the furnace,review of
film
> > 'Girlfriend'
> >
> >
> >  >
> >  > I agreewith much of what Ms Tejal Shah writes in the
> >  > Mid Day review, but I don't understand why she has a
> >  > problem with Girlfriend's character becoming a lesbian
> >  > because of child sexual abuse. Isn't that possible?
> >  >
> >  > I have found that while homosexuality is a very
> >  > important issue in intellectual circles, I wonder why
> >  > this disdain and indifference towards child sexual
> >  > abuse. There's a book called "Bitter Chocolate: Child
> >  > Sexual Abuse in India" by Pinki Virani in which she
> >  > writes that homosexuals sometimes abuse children with
> >  > the purpose of making them homosexuals.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  > Shivam