[Reader-list] [arkitectindia] Interview: V.T.Rajshekar on Dalit Liberation and Religious Conversion

[arkitect95]

Interview: V.T.Rajshekar on Dalit Liberation and Religious Conversion 
by
Yogi Sikand 


V.T. Rajshekar is the editor of the Bangalore-based English 
fortnightly 
Dalit Voice.  He is a leading figure in the Dalit movement, and has 
written numerous books on Dalit history, culture, politics as well as 
incisive critiques of Marxism and Brahminism.  In this interview with 
Yoginder Sikand he talks about his work and reflects on the 
challenges 
facing the Dalit movement today, particularly the issue of religious 
conversion.

Q: 	How did you get involved in the Dalit struggle?
A: 	I was associated with the Indian Express in Bangalore but I 
was 
dismissed after I came into conflict with the editor.  By that time I 
was already taking an active interest in the Dalit movement, although 
I 
am not a born Dalit myself. I, along with some friends, then set up 
the 
Karnataka Dalit Action Committee to spearhead the Dalit Movement in 
the 
state.  When Dr. Mulk Raj Anand, the noted writer, heard about my 
dismissal from the Indian Express, he contacted me and said that I 
should set up my own paper to highlight the issues of oppressed 
groups 
like the Dalits.  So, we came out with our first issue in 1981, and 
have
 been regularly publishing Dalit Voice ever since then.  It has been 
an 
uphill struggle all along, and I have had to face several attacks on 
my 
life, a spell in prison and the vehement opposition from Brahminical 
forces for the work we are doing. 

Q: 	How do you define the term  Dalit?
A: 	We see it as a very broad term, including Scheduled Castes, 
Tribals,
 Backward Castes and oppressed sections among the Indian Muslims, 
Sikhs,
 Buddhists and Christians.  The word Dalit came into prominence in 
the 
early phase of the Dalit Panthers movement in Maharashtra in the 
1960s, 
although earlier Ambedkar has also used the word in his writings. 

Q: 	What role do you see your writings as playing?
A : 	I see them as weapons in the hands of the oppressed who are 
struggling for their rights and challenging the might of Brahminism.  
Traditionally, in India, the Brahmins have been the leaders of 
thought 
and they denied access to education to the Dalits and Shudras.  Now, 
every society has its literate, elite class, but the unique thing 
about 
the Indian caste society is that the leaders of thought  the thought 
controllersare also the controllers of the gods.  So, they have put 
into
 the mouths of the gods words that would help bolster Brahminical 
hegemony and legitimize the oppression of the Dalits.  The product of 
this are the many Brahminical scriptures that give religious sanction 
to
 the caste system, from the Vedas, down to the Puranas, the Gita and 
Manusmriti.  I see my writings as contributing in the process of 
challenging this thought control that has been inflicted on us for 
centuries.

Q: 	What do you see is the role of religion in the Dalit struggle 
for 
liberation?
A: 	Religion may not be of any value for you or me, but for the 
masses 
it is of great importance, giving them a sense of identity as well as 
spiritual relief and solace.  All revolutions of the oppressed before 
the dawn of political philosophies such as Marxism, Socialism, 
Democracy
 and Fascism, took the form of religious revivalist or religious 
conversion movements.  There can not be a better answer to your 
question
 than Ambedkars own conversion to Buddhism.  He ultimately found 
liberation in Buddhism.  He advocated that for the Dalits to gain 
liberation and self-respect they must convert to an egalitarian 
religion.
  This is why over the centuries millions of the Dalits and Shudras 
have,on
 their own accord, been converting to Islam, Christianity, Sikhism 
and 
so on, in a quest for liberation. 

Q: 	What impact has conversion to Buddhism had on the lives of 
the 
Dalits who have followed the path of Dr. Ambedkar?
A: A considerable change has been brought about in their lives.  It 
has 
made them more intellectually alert, more assertive.

Q: 	But Buddhism is itself not a militant religion.
A: 	That was my opinion when I wrote my book, Ambedkar And His 
Conversion, more than fifteen years ago.  But I had to revise my 
opinions after reading Ambedkars The Buddha And his Dhamma.  There, 
Ambedkar shows that the authentic Buddhism is not the sort as it is 
practiced by the Mahayanists and Hinayanists.  He has reinterpreted 
Buddhism as a really socially liberative religion.  The Buddha, says 
Ambedkar, did not preach absolute non-violence. Rather, he points out 
that the Buddha advocated self- defence if the need arose. Later, as 
Buddhism gradually got Brahminised, its socially liberative thrust 
got 
watered down and spiritualised, and this concept of absolute non-
violence
 bordering on apathy developed.  And that is how the sort of Buddhism 
that has become very fashionable in certain circles today limits 
itself 
simply to meditation and the practice of rites and rituals.  I must 
confess that in large parts of Maharashtra the sort of Buddhism that 
is 
practiced is basically ritualistic and has little to do with social 
change, which really is a betrayal of Ambedkars own mission.  So, in 
many Buddhist families among the Mahars, the caste to which Ambedkar 
belonged, you will find that Ambedkars The Buddha and his Dhamma is 
kept
 on a pedestal as a holy scripture but its socially liberative 
message 
is not understood or acted upon.  What I want to say is, yes, 
meditate 
and chant Buddhist mantras if you want, but dont reduce Buddhism 
simply 
to meditation.  It has a message of radical social emancipation, of 
liberation and freedom, which unfortunately is not being given the 
attention that it must get.

Q: 	What are the hurdles in the path of the conversion of the 
Dalits to 
Buddhism?
A: 	For one thing, they often have to face the violent opposition 
of the
 upper  caste Hindus if they do.  Secondly, the Buddhists do not 
possess
 a strong, well-organized missionary enterprise for this work.  
Buddhism
 cannot be preached by people like you and me  you need religious 
leaders.  India is a country which has had solid religious traditions 
for thousands of years. A person may be a total fraud, but if he is 
dressed in saffron robes ignorant people hold him in great awe.  
Realising this deep-rootedness of religion in the psyche of the 
people 
Ambedkar felt the need to clothe his message in a religious form.

Q: 	Many Dalits today tend to see Ambedkar as an infallible 
prophet.  
What do you have to say?

A: 	I agree with you. I think Ambedkar never wanted that his 
people 
should turn him into another idol.  He was totally opposed to that.  
He 
was certainly not infallible.  Take the case of his writings.  Since 
they were so voluminous there is certainly a possibility of certain 
seeming contradictions or divergences in certain areas.  For 
instance, 
at one place Ambedkar says that the Aryans were foreigners and at 
another place he says that they were indigenous to India.  As I see 
it, 
Ambedkars thought is like a flood.  It flows, it evolves, it 
develops.  
It has to.  If it stagnates then it becomes a cesspool.  Ambedkars 
thoughts evolved over a period of time. So, quite naturally, he may 
have
 changed his views about a particular issue.  No creative thought 
comes 
to a final standstill.  It must constantly develop and must 
constantly 
be revised to take in to account new evidence, new circumstances.

Q:	So do you advocate conversion to Buddhism for the Dalits?
A: 	It is not for me to tell them what to do.  When the water 
flows, it 
finds its own course.  So, in Punjab the Dalits sought refuge in 
Islam 
and Sikhism.  In Kerala and Andhra they went in for Christianity.  In 
each area they have chosen the liberative religion of their choice, 
depending on local circumstances.

V.T.Rajshekar can be contacted on vtr at ndf.vsnl.net.in
The website of Dalit Voice can be accessed on www.dalitvoice.org


By
Yogi Sikand 
ysikand at islaminterfaith.org










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