[Reader-list] dastangoi

[Yousuf]

Dear Mahmood
Responding after much delay, also copying to sarai for
larger debate. I used the word ‘perversions’ for want
of a better term and I personally don’t believe wining
and eroticism are perversions (the reason why I put it
in quotes), but of course people like Thanvi and
Shibli would like to believe they are. But there may
not be any one standard of how these subjects were
accepted or not accepted in a Muslim society at any
time.

What should be termed ‘Islamic’ is difficult to
resolve – at least in my mind. But certainly we have
to be careful with a sort of ‘orientalist’ view. An
interesting example: a friend of mine who is a scholar
of Arabic literature, believed that Encyclopedia
Britannica is the ‘most authentic and exhaustive
source of information’ about any subject under the
sun, which Britannica claims any way. But this friend
was frustrated when his efforts in trying to find
specific info in Britannica about an Arabic novelist,
failed. I tried to help him look for the info, but to
our great puzzlement, we couldn’t find any large
article on ‘Arabic literature’ in the 32 volumes of
Britannica. Finally, we stumbled upon a huge entry
called ‘Islamic Arts’ which contained many pages on
literature of Arabic, Persian, Turkish and so on,
assuming that everything produced in those languages
is “Islamic”. My friend’s belief in Britannica’s
authenticity shattered completely. Fortunately, for
India/south Asia, they didn’t have an entry called the
'Hindu Arts' – they called is South Asian Arts. Also
they would never quote Shakespeare or Goethe as
Christian Literature.

So I am just wondering whether we should even use the
term Islamicate for literatures like the dastaans. I
personally don’t think that there is such a thing as
‘Islamic arts’. The spread of Islam may have provided
a vehicle of cultural exchange, altering people’s
worldview, and therefore a ‘sophistication of
pre-Islamic cultures’ is what we see as ‘Islamic’
arts. Of course, Islam’s iconoclasm has its own role
to play in all this. I have discussed some of this in
my own Sarai fellowship last year.

There are many non-Islamic folk narratives in India
which contain Islamic folklores or Islamic personages
(prophets/saints), and vice-a versa, (I have been
exploring such syncretic narratives in popular
devotional art), and I think dastaans, at least their
oral forms, are coming from the same local traditions.


One option would be to relate to arts or their
influences by their geography/demography rather than
religion. Of course there are gray areas with
everything you step in.

Yousuf


--- mahmood farooqui <mahmoodfarooqui at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> 
> Dear Yousuf,
> 
> Thank you very much for reading the article and
> taking
> time out to reply...highly gratified..
> 
> The reason Dastan-e-Amir Hamza is usually described
> as
> part of Islamic literature is because it was
> produced
> in all parts of the Islamic world, not to imply that
> it is 'religious' literature...it is part of my
> project to situate its Indian speciality and to
> emphasise its indigenous, secular dimension...
> 
> It was certaily written for entertainment, but
> precisely because the Dastans purport to be an
> Islamic
> exploit against enemies--in all its versions--and
> that
> its audience was the Indo-Islamic bazaari ecumene
> that
> the manner of its fighting and the way it is
> described
> is important. 
> 
> However just as we should not assume that since
> Ghazals were part of the arts that was practiced in
> the Islamic world that it is an Islamic form...Of
> course the Dastan-e-Amir Hamza of 46 volumes that I
> am
> trying to read is NOT islamic at all...
> 
> I wholly agree that we need to situate this in the
> context of other literatures being produced at the
> time to judge its acceptability/liberalism etc..the
> fact that Thanvi and Shibli take pains to wean
> people
> away from Dastans slightly later emphasies both
> their
> popularity as well as their threatening nature as
> far
> as Islamist reformers are concerned..
> 
> Perhaps if I use the word Islamicate instead of
> Islamic it would be more acceptable?
> 
> SInce you have used the word 'perversions' I was
> wondering what you would describe as Islamic? Can it
> be delinked from the changing practice of Muslims in
> historical time? Is there an essence of Islam beyond
> which aspects, beleiefs, practices in
> Muslim-Islamicate societies become un-Islamic? Does
> the use of the word Islamic equal religious? Is
> there
> such a thing as Islamic Arts-say calligraphy- would
> they then be taken to mean religious Arts? 
> 
> I certainly do not find wining, same-sex or
> eroticism
> perversions of Islam simply because they have been
> around in Islamicate-Muslim societies since the same
> time that Islam has been around..
> 
> As for Tilism's popularity, well at least till the
> 1870s there is evidence to show that many otherwise
> highminded and aristocratic Muslims enjoyed it
> greatly, it was performed in private houses and in
> public places...there may have been
> people/sections/elements that rejected, resented it,
> but they acquire prominence later...and that is my
> problem too.
> 
> Thank you again for writing...I hope you would
> continue to do so...
> 
> I had really liked your piece in Tehelka about
> Khamosh
> Pani et al..it was polemical and, a rare thing these
> days, sincere at the same time...
> 
> Regards
> Mahmood
> 
> 
> 
> --- Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dear Mehmood
> > Happy to know that someone is working on dastaans
> > this
> > time at Sarai. I saw your write-up on Mid Day and
> > have
> > a few comments about that (not about your first
> > Sarai
> > abstract).
> > 
> > I doubt whether one should begin to assume that
> the
> > epic Tilism Hoshruba/Amir Hamza is religious or
> > 'Islamic' in any way. Dastans were meant for
> > wholesome
> > entertainment which may include some devotional
> > element too, but that probably should not limit
> them
> > to be interpreted as religious. I suppose every
> > story
> > needs a hero and a villain, and the two also have
> to
> > have some kind of ideologies or agenda to fight
> for.
> > Since the dastangoe and his audience/readers are
> > probably ‘Muslim’, the good guys of the story are
> > simply using Islam to fight their war against the
> > bad
> > guys. But whether this makes the story ‘Islamic’
> is
> > open to debate. Of course, the religious folklore
> > and
> > the prophets are being used, since they are part
> of
> > the popular imagination, in the same spirit as
> > Mahabharata or other folk kathas. In the past,
> there
> > was a lot of gray area between people’s
> religiosity,
> > entertainment and cultural expression, which is
> what
> > the narratives like the dastaans reflect. One
> > probably
> > cannot use today’s standards to classify tilism
> > hoshruba into ‘religious’, ‘historical’ or any one
> > kind of literature.
> > 
> > As for the flowing of the wine etc., there is no
> > dearth of such descriptions in Urdu/Persian
> medieval
> > literature - not simply the symbolic/poetic use of
> > wine and intoxication, but the fact of its
> practical
> > use in the so-called ‘Muslim’ world. Of course one
> > can
> > also find plenty of other ‘perversions’ in
> > Persian/Urdu literature, such as the same-sex
> love,
> > eroticism, vulgarity, or idolatry – often in a
> book
> > that starts by invoking the name of God and the
> > Prophet and so on. But that does not make them
> > Islamic. 
> > 
> > I doubt whether we can judge the ‘liberalism’ of
> > Muslims of that era by reading only an epic like
> > tilism. Today, the moment we see something in
> > Perso-Arabic script, we assume that its coming
> from
> > the Muslim world, and therefore must be ‘Islamic’
> in
> > nature. Hence even the ‘perversions’ such as wine
> or
> > eroticism seem like ‘justified’ in Islam, or
> reflect
> > a
> > liberal Muslim society, because they are written
> in
> > Perso-Arabic script. But how do we know that in
> the
> > past, when Perso-Arabic was the mainstream script
> in
> > Indo-Persian world, there didn’t exist an equally
> > vehement rejection of the liberal literature such
> as
> > tilism hoshruba. I guess one has to read it in
> > context
> > of the other literatures being produced at that
> time
> > to judge its ‘status’ in the society.
> > 
> > Looking forward to your postings at Sarai.
> > 
> > Yousuf Saeed
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- mahmood farooqui <mahmoodfarooqui at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >
>
http://ww1.mid-day.com/columns/mahmood_farooqui/2005/january/101012.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 		
> > __________________________________ 
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> > 
> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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