[Reader-list] Re: More on "mandal II"

[Gabriela Vargas-Cetina]

Dear Shivam,

Thank you for your careful analysis and explanation of both mine and Anuj's
postings.  You have obviously put a lot of research into this and yes, you
bring a much needed informed perspective on these issues.  We can only hope
that whatever works gets implemented, and that what gets implemented works -
not that education is a sure way out of poverty or drudgery, but it sure
increases one's chances to have a better life, or at least to have more
choice of life options.

Thanks again,

Gabriela


On 4/17/06 3:01 AM, "Shivam" <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:

> Dear Anuj,

My reply:

>  Am substantially  in agreement with your views in
> your articles and this
> post, and have watched myself get irritatingly
> indignant on coming across
> the blatantly propagandist  campaign in the
> English language
> media.

Yes, but after the initial hysteria they seem to
> have regained some
sense of objectivity and are at least paying lip service to
> the other
side of the 'debate'.

> 1. What about OBC reservation being seen
> as fundamentally  different from
> and even in opposition to SC/ST
> reservation. Not just uppercaste bloggers
> but Barkha Dutt talking of
> Chandrabhan Prasad in "we the People" in her HT
> article, argue  on these
> lines. This is a crucial question I think.

It is no doubt true that OBCs
> don't face the amount and kind of
discrimination and atrocities that SC/STs
> do. It is also true that in
much of north India, Dalits and OBCs are in direct
> conflict with each
other - even in violent conflict at the grassroots level.
> However,
that does not mean that OBCs are not victims of caste
> stratification.
My story on caste discrimination in Lucknow's newsrooms
> includes 
> OBCs:
http://www.thehoot.org/story.asp?storyid=Web2196523711Hoot122711%20AM122
> 9&pn=1

Chandrabhan Prasad has chiefly three
> objections:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1486250,curpg-
> 2.cms


1) That landed jatis like Yadavs and Kurmis are too rich to
> need
reservation, just that they need a social revolution for modernity
> to
arrive at their doorsteps: ""OBCs invest least in education of
> their
children and block their money in immovable assets. They need a
> social
movement, not reservations."

This is not true if you see the National
> Commission of backward
Classes' website where they list the long criteria for
> a community to
be counted as OBC. A community should not hold this amount of
> land or
should not be this close to access drinking water, and so
> on:
http://ncbc.nic.in/html/guideline.htm


2) 40% of OBCs can be classified
> as MBCs or Most Backward Castes and
they are the ones who really need
> reservations but the abovementioned
land-owning OBCs take it all.

This point
> has a lot of merit, and he is right that MBCs don't have a
political voice.
> The second-level classification of MBCs, however, has
already been happening
> in many states including Prasad's native Uttar
Pradesh as the compulsions of
> state-level coalition politics move
constituency by constituency.


3) "The
> anti-Mandal lobby gained in legitimacy simply because Mandal
went the wrong
> way. It is in that sense that Mandal hurts even
Dalits."

Now, this is not
> clear at all. Dalits already have reservation
proportionate to their
> population, though no doubt a lot more needs to
be done than just
> reservations. But how do 27% reservations for OBCs
(who form 52% of India)
> 'hurt' Dalits? I don't know.




> 2.The well-known problem of reservation
> seats lying vacant. Now this is of
> course because of blatant refusal to
> implement it etc. But why is it there
> is so much less public and political
> discourse on proper implementation and
> on demands for filling vacant seats
> than on creating new quotas.

This is complicated. Firstly, OBC reservation
> seats in states do not
lie vacant, as far as I know, because there are enough
> OBCs coming out
of school and college. For SCs (that is, Dalits) there is a
> large
amount of alleged discrimination. Upper caste individuals
> responsible
for filling seats say 'candidate not suitable' and write him off -
> how
much of this is true and how much is caste discrimination
> needs
investigation. This does show the need for affirmative action to
> back
'positive discrimination': you need training programmes, etc, and
there
> indeed are some such training programmes:

(1)
> http://www.theotherindia.org/caste/catchin-up.html

(2)
> http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060424&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&si
> d=3

In any case, if seats are lying vacant that cannot be reason enough
> to
end Dalit reservations: fill those seats with general category ad-hocs
till
> you can find a Dalit / reduce the percentage of reservation, etc.
But all this
> needs to be done without any malafide intentions.
Reservations should be
> handled sensitively. Not filling seats may just
be a loophole. Here is one
> example of how loopholes are found to
circumvent
> reservations:
http://riversblueelephants.blogspot.com/2006/04/bosom-friend.htm
> l

(An example of how not to handle reservations: In IIT Kharagpur,
> for
instance, I am told that quota students are given library cards that
are
> of a different colour than the general category. Once there is
identification
> the room for discrimination is open.)



> 3. A common refrain recently has
> been that college-level is already too late
> for reservation and it should be
> done in schools to get them ready.

Right: so SCs/STs/OBCs already coming out
> of school: what about them?
I don't see why the two should be mutually
> exclusive. Do both!


> But four
> months back, when the 93rd amendment was
> just about to be passed,

There's way too much confusion if it is the 93rd or
> the 104th
amendment. Any clarifications, anyone?


> we heard
> the elite
> public schools in delhi screaming murder
> when reservation there was
> theoretically made possible. I personally think this
> is the most radical and
> necessary step- reservation in private schools-
> towards destroying
> elitism
> right at its roots.We know how the very basis of the education
> system from
> Nehruvian times has been casteist  by underinvesting in primary
>
> education.

(See http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1482181.cms
> )

Although no such decision has been taken, I am all for it. I
completely
> agree with you about the revolution of a cultural change it
can bring about.
> Our colonisers started their anti-class movement even
when they were
> colonising us. And we are still colonised in our public
schools. Our "public"
> schools need a lot more reform in a lot of
things, far more than government
> schools, but that's another story.

These public schools, incidentally, are
> "aided" in the sense that the
land on which they are built was given out to
> them on very low rates
*because* they were going to build schools on them.
> They did this -
even back then, when they were building these schools - on the
> promise
that they would reserve 25% seats for the poor. So your
> housemaid's
son could study in that school with your son. For years these
> schools
didn't keep their promise until the Delhi govt went to
> court.
Thereafter, when urban poor started flocking these schools,
> principals
asked them in the interview questions like, "Will you be able
> to
afford the fees?"

When you ask for caste-based reservations, people say
> make it income
based. When you make it income based, they are not happy with
> that
either. Incidentally, why should reservations be caste/community
> based
rather than income based? The answer to that is that the policy
> of
reservations is not a poverty alleviation programme. Its sole purpose
is to
> increase the representation and presence of deprived castes in
Shining India.
> The idea of reservations has more to do with social
diversity and integration
> than economic upliftement, which merely
becomes a corollary.


> maybe
>
> reservation on schools need to be emphasised a lot more after all.

Again, I
> don't see the two as mutually exclusive.



> 4. One of my specific interests,
> which I was very happy to know that you
> strongly shared, is in the upper
> caste nature of the indian news media. Your
> analysis is of course rare and
> acute and the only other person I have read
> on these lines is S Anand from
> Outlook.

I am humbled to be compared with S. Anand (who is a member of
> this
list, by the way) and have a long way to go before I reach there!



>
> However my question is why only concentrate on Lucknow, a great place to
>
> start this of course, why not Delhi as well. How many SC/ST/OBCs are there
>
> in IBN, NDTV, TOI, Indian Express etc.

Well, in Lucknow I was only asking the
> question that Chandrabhan
Prasad and others have already done for years in
> Delhi. If there is
any semblance of debate on these subjects, we all owe a
> great debt to
Chandrabhan Prasad:
> http://www.ambedkar.org/chandrabhan/Blacksin.htm

I strongly recommend "Dalit
> Diary" if you haven't already read
> it:
http://www.navayana.org/content/catalog.htm

At least a few essays talk
> about the Delhi media.


> Pioneer of course has given a token
> space to 1
> columnist. Like the 'zenana dabba' as madhu kishwar inimitably
> calls such
> measures.

And we owe that to The Pioneer as well! :)



> What I am trying to
> say is that the we continue to see the English language
> press as afflicted
> by elitism, but only that of class and not of caste or
> communalism. So
> dainik jagaran/ Gujarat Samachar  are seen as the great
> communal upper-caste
> newspapers and TOI etc as neo-liberal but not communal.
> Maybe on the lines
> of the difference between BJP and congress.

That's a very interesting
> analysis.

> But I think
> there is a problem here. Maybe its high time we
> stopped seeing the English
> media  as the great saviour from the local
> vernacular primordialism in
> Traditional India, but just as implicated as
> dramatis personae in whatever
> these practices are.

Yes, but it is early
> days yet, I think, to come to a final conclusion
about either because the
> media is in a great churning - I mean, we've
just just had our first copy-cat
> show of the Pulitzers:
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/2326.html


> (why
> the Mandal commission relied on 1931 Census is because no caste census
> has
> been allowed since then. It was proposed again in 2001 but it didnt
> happen,
> provoking an interesting debate)

Yes, this is one thorn of contention: can we
> rely on 1931 data? And if
policy as important as reservations across
> institutions - public and
private schools and colleges, private and public
> sector - is really to
be implemented we need fresh data.


> Oh finally, can
> you please tell me how one can get a flat in gaurav
> aprtments, patparganj. I
> think somebody I know might be interested.

Just go there and ask for the
> property dealer. My source for this info
was an IANS report, and somebody on
> this list had contested the claim.
One of these days I am planning to go there
> and find this out myself.
But I wonder if we will ever know the truth about
> the line that
separates prejudice and self-isloation...

Thanks Anuj!

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