[Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 37, Issue 30

Mon Aug 14 20:12:21 IST 2006

Vedavati,

  Godhra was a pre-meditated incident, and many survivors themselves said, that the fire came from inside the compartment and not outside. 

  And please, raping pregnant women, killing them and taking out the babies from their womb and burning it, is not "reaction". Cutting off 65 year old women's breasts or raping them, cannot be called "reaction". It is pre-meditated murder and mayhem.

  So, please let  us not condone these dastardly acts. I am not a pseudo secularist. I will call a spade a spade. If you had read my mail in its entirety, you would have understood that. 

  In Maharashtra as recently as a few years ago, people from the SC community were made to eat human excreta because they dared to take water from the upper caste well. Even today, in Andhra, lower caste people are not allowed into mainstream temples. At it was and perhaps is a very common practice that the wives of lower caste men have to satisfy their "Upper Caste" Masters. And in some places, the newly married bride, should first get PURIFIED by the "Upper caste" landlord, before she can sleep with her own husband.

  If you can say that What happened in Gujarat, is good for the Hindus, then I guess all the lower caste people should do the same thing to us "UPPER CASTE" fellows, since they have been suffering not for a couple of hundred years, but for centuries....

  Once again, I say this, if we are not perfect, and if we have been discriminating and treating our own people in the most inhuman ways, then "WE" have no bloody right to point fingers at others.

  I don't support reservations,  because it has divided us further as people and society and it was unable to iradicate the caste system. I feel that we should stop asking people to mention their religion and caste at every step and on every application form. 

  And I think Jassim Ali too is saying the same thing, that we cannot generalise...and take a blinkered view.

  All that people are saying is that "let us look at ourselves and where we have gone wrong". 

  And pray, who is Modi, or RSS or the mullahs or the POPE to say that they are the "thekedars" of religion??? Who are they to say that they are the protectors??? I think that is where the problem lies. 

  I am not sure if you have understood Hinduism, but I have, and it teaches you to look inside yourself, to find the truths and answers. And it is the one religion, the SANATANA DHARMA that has preached, "Vasudaika Kutumbakam" - All world is one family. And yes, i am proud to call myself a 'Sanatani", but I will not support mass murder done by anyone, in the name of religion. 

  If what Modi did was the right approach, then we should be supporting the Americans for what they did in Iraq and other places. And tomorrow it may be us receiving the bombs. 

  Lastly I want to say this, that Religion (all of them) have been used very well, by those who wanted to Control the rest of the people.

  Saraswati 

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:49:40 +0000
From: "Vedavati Jogi" 
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communalisation by Media
To: s_kavula at yahoo.com
Cc: thestatesman at vsnl.com, editor at ibnlive.com,
arkitectindia at yahoogroups.com, toical1 at indiatimes.com,
feedback at hindustantimes.com, reader-list at sarai.net, ttedit at abpmail.com
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

what happened in gujrat was very bad, no doubt but while cursing guj.cm for 
that, we should not ignore godhra, . moreover modi alone could not have done 
anything, hindus in guj. wholeheartedly supported him, provoked hindus 
'reacted'!and it was an obvious reaction..
since gandhian days hindus have been given lot of doses of 'ahimsa'.
when it comes to muslims, psedu secularists keep their mouths shut. how long 
hindus can tolerate these things?
when babri masjid was pulled down these pseudo secularists created hue & 
cry, what about those temples broken in Kashmir?
what about those kashmiri pundits, who have become refugees in their own 
country? incidentlly, i am a maharashtrian married to a kashmiri 
pundit.based in pune.
hindu cannot be considered as secular if he stands by another hindu but to 
prove his or her secular credentials he has to support muslims may be even 
those muslims who are involved in terrorist activities.- this is secularism 
in india!

vedavati

>From: saraswati 
>To: Vedavati Jogi 
>CC: reader-list at sarai.net, arkitectindia at yahoogroups.com, 
>feedback at hindustantimes.com, thestatesman at vsnl.com, ttedit at abpmail.com, 
>toical1 at indiatimes.com, editor at ibnlive.com, rgdj12 at yahoo.com
>Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Communalisation by Media
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:48:30 -0700 (PDT)
>
>no vedavati,
>
> i was not equating RSS with Nazis. I should have added one more thing 
>may be - that all americans are not George W Bush nor are all muslims 
>Terrorists or all British are and were not BAD Fellows.
>
> i was only saying that one should not generalise. I think, the problem 
>occurs with generalising people and communities.
>
> I guess it is about time, we just called ourselves human beings and 
>said, okay there are just may be good or bad people and many more with 
>various shades of grey.
>
> it was that i wanted to say. i should have said may be all Hindus are 
>not hard core fundamentalists.
>
> About the RSS - i don't know, but what we have seen in Gujarat was 
>genocide done in the name of religion - people were marked and killed, 
>killed by the fundamentalist forces.
>
> I do not know where you come from, but when I traveled to the North, 
>especially Gujarat, (i was there just before the sorry time of march 2002 - 
>i could see the rift that was created by the works of RSS-VHP - i could 
>witness the segregation of muslims by these forces) and soon after I 
>returned from there - (i was in gujarat in jan 2002 and in march i hear of 
>the horrible situation).
>
>I am not at all supporting the muslim appeasement done by Gandhi, or by the 
>successive governments...but then, i don't support the hindutva brigade 
>either. i believe it is about time each community did an introspection and 
>set their own house in order, rather than throwing stones at each other.
>
> it is a fact, that caste remains the bete noire of the hindu society. 
>and we complain about conversions - really, i feel if hinduism was such a 
>weak religion, it would have disappeared long time ago. i think on the 
>contrary - i think it was one religion that never needed any kind of 
>preaching. and if it must disappear - then so be it, that is the cycles of 
>time. secondly, each person has a right to follow his or her religion of 
>their choice. and if they wish to convert, then it is their personal issue.
>
> however, i donot approve the way the evangelists go on about converting 
>people - by calling names of the hindu religion. the missionaries have all 
>right to preach about their religion, but they have no right to criticize 
>or degrade other people's religious beliefs or practices (which they always 
>do).
>
> similarly, the muslims in this country always cry foul and try to show a 
>wounded heart, and anything that hurts the muslims, they simply get angry 
>and start blaming the system and the majority community, and the 
>governments, which continue to condone an errring child. this ofcourse was 
>the reason for the rise in anti-muslim sentiments amongst the rest. they 
>want to have a seperate civil code, but will they accept the rest of the 
>law of the islam like in Saudi Arabia, where a rapist will be stoned or 
>hanged to death, or a thief's hands are cut off? when there have been cases 
>of molestation by fathers and brothers of their own minor girl children in 
>my city, then it was all hushed up and noone spoke of these things. it is a 
>fact, that double standards exist amongst the muslims. today, they ask for 
>special reservations, but they don't send their girls to school. if they 
>remained in the ghettos it was partly their own making. they do not wish to 
>acknowledge their flaws.
>
> it is the same with us, the Hindus, we have failed to uplift our own 
>people, we have failed to eradicate the caste system and bring egalitarian 
>society, we treat our own people as third-rate citizens and then we say, 
>they should "feel proud to be hindus" and punish them for "converting to 
>other religions". we have not allowed the free flow of knowledge...and 
>today we are paying the price of it.
>
> it is this that i wanted to say ...there are flaws amongst all of us. 
>let us stop generalising and start to look inwards than outwards...let us 
>have the courage to face the truth about ourselves and call a spade a 
>spade.
>
> regards
> saraswati
>
>
>Vedavati Jogi wrote:
> saraswati, i appreciate your letter, but one thing i did not understand. 
>why
>are you equating rss with nazis? has rss ever killed any muslim just 
>because
>he is a muslim? they talked against gandhiji's muslim appeasement policy
>which ultimately resulted into partition of india. nathuram happened to be
>the member of rss but the latter had never deputed him to assasinate 
>gandhi.
>
>muslims partitioned india but we don't look upon all muslims as traitors,
>same way you should not hold rss responsible for nathuram's deeds. i 
>request
>you to first understand their views and then pass such type of remarks.
>
>vedavati
>
>
> >From: saraswati
> >To:
> >CC: >Subject: [Reader-list] Communalisation by Media
> >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:58:22 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Dear Mr. Roger Das,
> >
> > I am wondering whether highlighting only certain facts will reflect the
> >truth.
> >
> > Communalisation by media, it may be true in some quaters. if the media
> >forgetting Mohammed Rafi, equals to communalisation of Media, then what
> >does the eugolisation of Shah Rukh Khan, day in and day out, amount to???
> >That special episodes are made on Amir Khan and today, Saif too has 
>become
> >the darling of the media. And so has his sister. And then in that case no
> >one should be using Irfan Pathan as an advertisement Idol. Why is AR
> >Rahman, the uncrowned king of the music world - not because he is a 
>Muslim,
> >but because he is the best. And let me tell you, His song, "Sat rangi re"
> >from Dil se and "piya haji ali" are the best of his compositions 
>according
> >to me. My sister used to listen to "piya haji ali" every night before 
>going
> >to sleep, while she was pregnant, because she wanted her child to imbibe
> >the spiritual feelings that come from that song.
> >
> > by the way, i am from that so-called upper caste community of brahmins.
> >
> > Please do not make a mountain of the mole hill. It is true that muslims
> >have been seen with suspicion due to the effects of partition in some
> >quarters. But then, so is it a fact, that most of our Bollywood big stars
> >have been Muslims for many decades, even in days after partition, we had
> >Suraiyya and Yousuf Khan AKA Dilip Kumar who were given a cult status by
> >the people of this country.
> >
> > Ofcourse, Yousuf Saab, did make remarks in Pakistan against India when
> >he went to receive an honour in Pakistan, is another matter, that no one
> >mentions. It was reported in the Week, many years ago.
> >
> > It is a fact, abberations are there. But there are two sides to the same
> >coin. Just as all Germans are not Nazis, so are not all Hindus, RSS
> >sympathisers.
> >
> > In fact, while I was in school, we never bothered who was a hindu or who
> >was a muslim. we all ate together from each others lunch boxes, and my
> >parents never taught us to be intolerant- my first best friend was a 
>Muslim
> >girl, and today I have very close friends who are from Pakistan, one is
> >from the Azad Kashmir (as they call it) and my father always took us to 
>the
> >Dargah in the outskirts of Hyderabad. and this is no exception. there are
> >tons of such cases.
> >
> > please kindly, do not stoke anger by constantly GENERALISING, applying
> >facts that belong only to certain sections of the society to the Society 
>at
> >Large.
> >
> > Most importantly, let us not forget where the problem arises... yes it
> >is a fact, that caste based discrimination continues in this country,
> >especially in rural areas, so also, it continues among both converted
> >christians and muslims too... both religions which preach egalitarian
> >treatment too all its peoples' have not been able to remove the caste
> >discrimination which continued even after conversions...
> >
> > we will be able to change things, if we, each one of us, looks inwards
> >at the flaws in our own individual systems and try to correct them, 
>rather
> >than always trying to throw stones at others....
> >
> > let us set our own homes in order first....
> >
> > Let us try to build a nation, away from the rifts that were created by
> >the Colonisers.
> >
> > Let us not forget that Azim Premji, shot up to the top position as the
> >richest INDIAN, in this very country.
> >
> > If discrimination was really so much against the minority community,
> >they would not have been seen anywhere in the public sphere, like the way
> >it is with the minority communities in Pakistan or Bangladesh.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Saraswati.Kavula
> >
> >
> >From: rgdj12 at yahoo.com
> >To: reader-list at sarai.net,
> >arkitectindia at yahoogroups.com,feedback at hindustantimes.com,
> >thestatesman at vsnl.com
> > ttedit at abpmail.com, toical1 at indiatimes.com, editor at ibnlive.com
> > >Subject: [Reader-list] Communalisation by Media
> > >Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 02:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >
> > >Sir,
> > > In this communal driven country even media is running on the path
> >of
> > >partiality especially when it the question of Indian Muslims
> >ahcievement
> > >arises. yesterday it was the birth anniversary of wonderful
> >singer-actor
> > >Kishore Kumar and eevery news channels, hindi and bengali, aired nice
> > >programme on the late singer. It was good to have such programme in
> >the
> > >midst of these political drama that happens everyday. And on 30th July
> >NDTV
> > >carried an hour programme on S.D.Burman, the famous music composer, to
> > >celebrate his anniversary. But sad to say that media has sidelined the
> > >death or birth anniversary of the legend versatile singer, Md. Rafi. I
> >was
> > >desparately switching the channels to watch some programme on the
> >death
> > >anniversary of Md. Rafi, on 31st july but in vain. No news channels
> >even
> > >bother to carry just a spot on him. certainly only one inference comes
> >out
> > >of it and that is the religion. Being a devout msulim Md. Rafi has not
> > >given due respect in media whereas singers
> > > and music composers, his contemporaries and juniors noticed on
> >television
> > >in some way or other just because they are non-muslims. I have not
> >seen any
> > >especial coverage of any Indian Muslim dignatories of any field. This
> > >established a fact that almost all the media are owned by upper caste
> >hindu
> > >groups and managed by hindus who least bother to consider Indian
> >Muslim
> > >acheievers as real treasures of the country. Thus it create new and
> >deep
> > >rift between Muslim and hindu, it is very unfortunate that media is
> >also
> > >running on the path of communalism and favouring non-muslims. Hope
> >this
> > >letter will find place in your esteemed newspaper.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: hight at 34n118w.net
Subject: [Reader-list] Floating Points discussed at ISEA
To: reader-list at sarai.net
Message-ID:
<49503.70.34.241.32.1155536167.squirrel at webmail.34n118w.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Work with developing a new tool to "read" cities and the landscape with
data and narrative that adjusts with elevation/altitude and how to track
the trajectories of previous flights discussed as remote speaker at ISEA
Aug 11.

for more information go to

floatingpointsspace.blogspot.com

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:41:44 +0000
From: "Vedavati Jogi" 
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communalisation by Media
To: jassim.ali at gmail.com
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

If muslims in kashmir have ethnic cleansed the pandits, then where was the 
central govt as well as the subsequent BJP govt when came in power ? why 
werent these things investigated ?

......................

dear mr. jassim,

in 1989, bjp was not the ruling party, by the time kashmir problem started 
third front had taken over.

moreover, i am not a bjp spokes person, nor i am justifying gujrat carnage 
, but i sincerely feel that pseudo secular thoughts & acts are responsible 
for hindu-muslim rift and unfortunately poor muslims are at receiving end.

after guj. happenings & before assembly elections in guj. i had visited one 
exhibition of gujrati dress materials in pune, out of curiosity i asked many 
traders about guj. riots. one of them said, 'what modi saab has done nobody 
else has done that for we hindus in india. just see what happens in 
election.' others nodded. i was stunned.

pseudo secularists and people like abu azmi remain safe and poor muslims 
have to bear the brunt. is it a secularism? mr. jassim, politicians are 
always playing minority card, 'divide & rule' is their policy. now muslims 
like you have to take initiative & show these politicians their place. can 
you do that?

>From: "Jassim Ali" 
>To: "Vedavati Jogi" 
>CC: s_kavula at yahoo.com, thestatesman at vsnl.com, editor at ibnlive.com, 
>arkitectindia at yahoogroups.com, toical1 at indiatimes.com, 
>feedback at hindustantimes.com, reader-list at sarai.net, ttedit at abpmail.com
>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communalisation by Media
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:25:09 +0400
>
>Gimme a break .....
>
>We all know that there are Bad Muslims just as Bad Hindus,Bad Jews,Bad
>Mallus,Bad Bongs,Bad Arabs, and so on and so forth...
>If presumably educated and logically driven individuals like us tend to get
>motivated by extreme propoganda and rhetorics then i guess we could forgive
>the hindus and the muslims for cutting eachothers throats .....
>
>If muslims in kashmir have ethnic cleansed the pandits, then where was the
>central govt as well as the subsequent BJP govt when came in power ? why
>werent these things investigated ?
>
>Even the Godhra cant justify a state sponsored genocide that happened in
>gujarat .....
>and i dont think 90% of my hindu brothers would disagree with me on that
>.....
>
>Yes muslims do have a severe state of self-pity and anguish and have
>contributed to a large extent to Ghetto-ising themselves post 1857 till 
>this
>date.
>If they arent socially mobile, they got none to blame except
>themselves......
>
>Im an Indian Muslim and im working and living in middle east at present ,
>have spent a fair amount of my time studying and working in india as well,
>and i mus say barring a few rare occurences i had never faced a problem.

=== message truncated ===

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