[Reader-list] The Reservation of numbers

[Shivam Vij]

Ah, Mr Karan Thapar and his original arguments!

I'll tell you how the 27% figure was arrived at. It was forced by the
hon'ble Supreme Court - the same hon'ble Supreme Court that now wants
to know from the Union of India how the 27% figure was arrived at!

The Mandal Commission used several statistics - most importantly, a
huge survey conducted by itself - to conclude that 52% per cent of
India's population (http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/index.htm )
can be said to be "backward". What exactly is meant by backward? See
http://ncbc.nic.in/html/guideline.htm

The 1931 census was used to get an idea of the occupational sub-castes
- and NOT their populations.

Now, someone went to the Supreme Court on the issue of the "creamy
layer" cornering the benefits of reservations. Creamy layer has been
one argument against reservations, and that reserved seats lie vacant
is another. But if the creamy layer takes away all the seats, why do
seats lie vacant? That's just one of many contradictions in the
anti-quota arguments that Karan Thapar won't ask on prime time TV.

Anyway, so the hon'ble Supreme Court in the Indira Sahani judgement
said that the total number of reservations can't exceed 50% seats in
an institution - and institutions in the south have found innovative
ways of bypassing this, btw.
Already there was 22.5% reservation for SC/STs. So it was to keep the
total number of reserved seats within the 50% bracket that the
government decided to have 27% reservations for OBCs. But even that
could not be implemented in central educational institutions as VP
Singh's government fell.

Did someone say something about statistics being lies? Okay, never mind.

As for P. Chidambaram, he's finance minister and not the social
justice minister. His job is to know the sensex and inflation numbers.

As for Karan Thapar, his job is to get his facts right! From the same
interview that you quote from, some ROTFL stuff:

*

Karan Thapar: Mr Chidambaram you are sitting in front of me advocating
that reservations have improved the quality of education in Tamil
Nadu. The truth is that you yourself didn't go to an institution where
there is reservation for OBCs. You went to Loyala College where there
is no reservation for OBCs and then you went to Harvard. Your son went
to Don Bosco School, Texas University and Cambridge University.

P Chidambaram: You got your facts wrong. I went to Presidency College,
which has reservation.

Karan Thapar: For your MA at which point in time affiliation to
colleges were not important.

P Chidambaram: Your facts are wrong. I went to Presidency College for
my basic under graduate degree where there is reservation. I went to
Law College for my law degree where there is reservation. I am not a
beneficiary of reservation but I know that reservation brought in
students to my class would otherwise have never got in.

Karan Thapar: Mr Chidambaram your son went to Don Bosco School where
there is no reservation. Then he went to the University of Texas where
there is no reservation and then he went to Cambridge University.

P Chidambaram: My son would have never got the benefit of reservation anyway.

Karan Thapar: Did you not send your son abroad deliberately because
you knew that the standard of education in Tamil Nadu had collapsed.

P Chidambaram: No not at all. I am a beneficiary of the educational
system in Tamil Nadu and I am proud about the educational system in
Tamil Nadu. It can be better that is a different matter. Neither my
son nor I are the beneficiary of reservations.

*

What empirical data does Thapar offer to support his contention that
the quality of educational and the repute of an institution is
inversely proportional to the quantum of reservations? All that Thapar
knows about the Mandal report is from a speech by Rajiv Gandhi, who
was leader of the opposition. Has he read the Mandal Report? Does he
know about the National Commission of Backward Classes? Does anyone
know who its chairman is? Is anyone in for an informed debate or will
it remain the farce that it is, to be decided on the terms of the
meritorious doctors reading 'You Can Win' under the shade of a
shamiana?

So which college did you go to, friends? That may have a lot of
bearing on this country's affirmative action policies.

Best,
s


On 7/1/06, ish at sarai.net <ish at sarai.net> wrote:
> A couple of weeks back I saw Karan Thapar's Interview with Chidambaram on
> Reservations. This was a very interesting interview because he raised one
> very important question ie. How the Govt has come up with the 27% as the
> reservation number for the OBC's. My anxiety always was how is this 27%
> number derived, integrated or regressed from empirical data. And I think we
> have a right to see how this '27%' is derived and how its supporting
> material has been put together.  When asked this Question our very own
> number crunching machine Chidambaram who only a week back came out with
> flying numbers for FII, FDI and the sensex , here for reservations seemed
> choked for numbers and even for words. And when later on when asked about
> when will govt file the report (which I guess the govt it has to file to
> the supreme court), the finance minister said the it will take 5-8 weeks.
> He said 'The Ministry has to put together all the material available to
> it reach the conclusion of 27 per cent ... The material will be put
> together. Wait for the material'. So was this number was derived without
> the material being put together. hmm
> This number is going to be applied on the whole nation and there has to be
> enough material/data to be supporting it on the 'national level' and
> not just state level. And again to explain this existance of 27%  will be
> just numbers, which can be read in one way or the other, recompiled and
> correlated to suit one Point of View or the other thats the truth of
> Statistics.
>
> Best
>
> Ish
> (sarai.net/ frEeMuZik.net)
> _____________________________________________________
> Following are a few lines of exchange from the interview
> Please do read the whole interview is at
> http://www.ibnlive.com/news/devils-advocate-pc-quotaunquote/12758-4-single.html
>
>
> Karan Thapar: This is very interesting. You have already decided that you
> want 27 per cent reservation for OBCs but you don't know on what basis
> you want it. Now you have to go back and discover the basis.
>
> P Chidambaram: I am sure the material is there. We are not discovering the
> basis.
>
> Karan Thapar: You are concocting it.
>
> P Chidambaram: No we are not either. The ministry has to put together all
> the material available to it to reach the conclusion of 27 per cent. It
> will be based on material and the material will be put together - wait for
> the material.
>
>
> Later on---this is the imp part when Chidambaram was asked about the
> derivation of 27% and the material to support this 27% and when it will be
> available for the public to see it-----
>
> Karan Thapar: There is something else that also emerges from this. If you
> are saying that all that material will be put together, clearly it hasn't
> been put together as yet.
>
> P Chidambaram: Wrong again. It will be put together in the form of an
> affidavit and will be given to the SC.
>
> Karan Thapar: If it is going to be put together then it hasn't been put
> together as yet?
>
> P Chidambaram: Listen you are quibbling on words. Let me explain my
> position. You are quibbling and therefore there is no point quibbling in an
> interview. The material will be put together; the material is available
> where Supreme Court asks a question. Suppose the Supreme Court asks what
> have you done about a particular tax matter. I know the answer but will
> have to put together the material in a form of an affidavit.
>
> Karan Thapar: This is not a tax matter. This is an issue that affects the
> future of people in India.
>
> P Chidambaram: Everything affects the people of India.
>
> Karan Thapar: Its an issue that has been challenged. When the government is
> asked what's the basis on which you have announced 27 per cent
> reservation in higher education for the OBCs. It's an amazing thing to
> say the government will answer in due course. The government needs to give
> an answer today.
>
> P Chidambaram: I am sorry the government does not have to answer you in an
> interview.
>
> Karan Thapar: Its not me its the people of India.
>
> P Chidambaram: Government will answer in the proper forum in Parliament in
> the Supreme Court not in an interview conducted by you.
>
> Karan Thapar: But you can't tell the people of India today.
>
>
> P Chidambaram: I have told you about the material. Shall I say it in Tamil
> for a change?
>
> Karan Thapar: No don't say it in Tamil.
>
> P Chidambaram: I have given you the material, the state government's
> report. Let me repeat it once again for you. Several reports done by the
> state governments counter backward casts. The Mandal report, the NSS report
> and any other surveys.
>
>
> Karan Thapar: All of which are contradictory.
>
> P Chidambaram: That's your judgement. We don't believe its
> contradictory.
>
> Karan Thapar: Its not my judgement. It's a fact.
>
>
> P Chidambaram: If it is a fact then why are you asking me the question.
>
>
> Karan Thapar: Because I am trying to prove that you don't have the basis
> for the decision you made.
>
>
> P Chidambaram: Go ahead and prove it if it satisfies you.
>
>
> Karan Thapar: If the people of India listening to this interview come to
> the conclusion that it does not appear to them that the government have an
> explanation, what would you say.
>
>
> P Chidambaram: The people of India are not people entirely of your
> thinking. The people of India consists of SCs, STs, and backward classes
> also. They will be quite happy to know the large amount of material is
> available in every state. Large amount of material is available to support
> the argument that a significant proportion of seats must be reserved for
> the OBCs.
>
>
> Karan Thapar: It sounds to me what you are saying is give us time we will
> come up with an explanation. We can't give it today but in eight weeks we
> will.
>
>
> P Chidambaram: Sorry that's your conclusion. Let me conclude the way I
> summarised it. My conclusion is there is ample material, you are simply
> refusing to see the material, You expect an answer in an interview. The
> answer will not be given to you in an interview. The answer will be given
> in a proper affidavit supported by proper documentation in the Supreme
> Court and in Parliament.
>
>
> Karan Thapar: And not before eight weeks. All right that's your answer.
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>