[Reader-list] Idol worship

Fri Dec 28 22:11:26 IST 2007

Dear Chanchal.
Let me try to answer all the points raised in your mail.
I will try to be brief with my answers.
  1. Do you follow everything of Kabir... 
  No. I don't have to. Kabir just was used to tell you that there are alternative schools of Hindu philosophy.
  2. Kabir said lots of things... Do you know all...
  No. But I know most of them.
  3. Kabir probably meant: God can be achieved only through purity of heart and mind... 
  But Kabir didn't say anywhere: How can you achieve that purity of mind and heart...
  Well, he did not say that. But if he meant that, then it would be the guru who would lead one to God. 
  Guru Govind dou khare
  Ka ke laagoon paay,
  Balihari Guru aapne
  Govind diya milaay.

  It roughly means that Guru needs to be worshipped more than God, as it is Guru who leads one to God.
  (Of course this is Kabir's view, I see no reason to find God. If God cares anything, let him find me.)
  4. Worship in Hinduism is a process of gaining respect, regard and love. Every Hindu knows that Idol will not move or do anything, yet they worship - and there is lies depth to it... And it is this process that has made HIndus the most tolerant religion of the world....
  Some of the saints/teachers  most respected by the learned Hindus never accept Hinduism as a religion. It is more a way of life; more of a philosophy.
  5. Had they been worshipping like Muslims and Christians.. they would also have behaved like them...

  Now how do Hindus behave which is different from other religions? We Hindus (sorry I have been declared fake) so you hindus have tried your utmost to follow the Western masters in all their manners. 
  (Khaki knickers chod ke 
  Bolo Vande mataram.)

  6. It seems to me that you are not a Hindu, and you are using a fake name.. or may be you are converted and I do not know your sirname...

  Even if I tell you my surname, why can't that be a faked one? But I have read many Hindu scriptures and know that idol worship is for the people with weaker intellect. I don't like to discuss Gyan Marg with the people who can't understand it. 
  ----- Original Message ----
  From: TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com>
  To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; reader-list at sarai.net
  Cc: sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:12:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Idol worship

  Kabir said and I do really not want to use my words to answer this mail.

  Patthar pooje hari mile
  To mein poojoon pahar
  Ta te to chaki bhali
  Jo pis khae sansaar.
  Here perhaps Kabir is telling a better use of a stone than being worshipped. 
  In Kabir's time all the mills were made with stone. What he roughly says is
  If one gets God by worshiping a stone
  I want to worship a mountain (perhaps in search of a bigger God)
  A mill is better than that
  which feeds the world by grinding the grain.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "chanchal malviya" <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
  To: <reader-list at sarai.net>
  Cc: <sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:52 AM
  Subject: [Reader-list] Idol worship

  > For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One 
  > religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are 
  > peaceful...
  >
  > Quick questions:
  > 1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. 
  > Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those 
  > words - what about those Muslims.
  > 2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? 
  > What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more 
  > impacting - picture or words?
  >
  > These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some 
  > analysis for you...
  >
  > 1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, 
  > would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask 
  > the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply 
  > what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same 
  > on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in 
  > depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it 
  > cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or 
  > talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. 
  > How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most 
  > beautiful creations of some hands.
  >
  > 2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk 
  > signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to 
  > Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian 
  > think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches 
  > helplessly on us.
  >
  > 3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity.
  >
  > 4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is 
  > material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all 
  > manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in 
  > that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. 
  > Thus the 'One' is explained.
  >
  > 5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and 
  > understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, 
  > emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place.
  >
  > 6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike 
  > all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on 
  > others).
  >
  > 7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are 
  > used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, 
  > Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - 
  > they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam 
  > means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit 
  > meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest 
  > form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva.
  >
  > 8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of 
  > thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be 
  > worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship 
  > Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as 
  > God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most 
  > benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up 
  > in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say 
  > that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to 
  > realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all 
  > natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence 
  > the best of God is what is worshipped.
  >
  > Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural 
  > research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to 
  > know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. 
  > So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are 
  > taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the 
  > power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus 
  > worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone 
  > has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'.
  >
  > How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social 
  > arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then 
  > taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is 
  > declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as 
  > impure.
  >
  > If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start 
  > worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater 
  > barbarism from past 1000 years.
  >
  > Jai Hind,
  >
  >
  > 
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