[Reader-list] shuddhabratas response]

Fri Mar 2 12:21:36 IST 2007

Hi

  I have been following this list for a very long time. The recents slurs and counter slurs have intrigued me. Well guys, I just want to say that people here are getting confused between the issue and the personal remarks. Do we have a problem with the issue or with the people in question. If we have a problem with the issue (The vedavati post) we should address it, which we haven't done. Vedavati definitely echoes the sentiments of millions of Indians. By getting personal we are ignoring the real issue, rather running away from it. Lets not get into mudslinging (I am loving it, exploring new things, hehehehe). Anyway I find it very childish.

  Happiness always
  Satish

Anjalika Sagar <anjalisaga at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
  :-D :-D :-D 

Bong man is such a funny term of abuse ... kind of affectionate or am I wrong ? Nothing then to do with Bongs, i.e water pipes or buckets,  only Gonads yes or no ?

I will use it to irritate Bengali friends ... ! Anymore national treasures ?

Bests anj

Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:   
Dear Emma, Iram, Rahul, Tapas, Anjalika, Dinesh, Aman (and everyone else)    Now this is really getting interesting. :)    In fact far more interesting than what was going on when Vedavati and  Abhik were trading charges.    The question of dignity is actually worth a real discussion, so maybe we  could get down to it one of these days, and while we are at it we should  also talk about robustly multi-coloured categories such as humiliation.    I am in complete agreement with Emma D when she says that "even pimps  have more dignity than certain bong men" and I am including myself in  the category of the bong man, once more, in agreement with her when she  ends the above statement by saying 'like shuddha'.    One cannot escape what in bengali we call 'bongshodosh' (the misfortune  of our descent, to which I could add the curse, or mixed blessing, or  'bad luck hi kharab hai' - of one's gonads, though it appears that  surgery and modern medicine bring hope to many, especially
 to those  nominally XY chromosomed individuals made melancholic by the misfortune  of inappropriate gendering)    So, some pimps have a great deal of dignity. Certainly.    But let's make things a little more precise and complicated at the same  time. Some bong men (not all, some) may have as much dignity as your  common or garden pimp, and an insignificant few may in fact have more  dignity than the average pimp. It's incredible, I know, but it has been  known to happen. I have in fact met one or two incredibly dignified,  refined, erudite, and slightly mad, very sad, bong men in my life. (And  none of them are now or ever have been, relatives of mine. Dignity is  probably a recessive gene in the case of my extended lineage and kinship  network.)    This is also further complicated by the fact that there are several  pimps who also happen to be bong men. I mean, you dont even need to  stroll down Shonagachi to know that gentlemen who might answer to names  such as
 'Tokai','Jhonta' 'Deb-dulal', 'Mortaza moshai' 'Gomes' and 'Boro  Photik' are bong, men and pimps. They smell of kashundi, parshey maacch  and make their money as only they know best. Some, maybe, such as  Deb-dulal, Mortaza Moshai, Gomes, and Boro Photik are honourable and  dignified pimps, 'oder baajaare naam-daak acchey', others, such as Tokai  and Jhonta are what we would call 'cchoto-lpk, raskel (rascal) and luj  (loose) character'. Mairi bolcchi, Dignity comes striated, even when it  visits pimps.    It is not yet established as to whether all bong women have as much  dignity as pimps or bong men. It is also not yet known as to whether  bong women who pimp retain as much dignity as others who don't, and  other men who do. This is a matter of ongoing investigation. Being a  bong man, I am possesed about an ontological certainty about myself and  others like me. But I cannot speak with any certainty about bong women.  Perhaps the bong women on this list might like to
 undertake their own  self-reflexive auto-critique.    But let me not stray. Once again, some women sex workers in genteel semi  retirement who do not get to the position of being the 'madam' or  'mashi' sometimes have to make do with being 'ejent (agent)' or 'didi'  or dalal, or pimp. This happens, and some, who might be called 'Komola',  or 'Mrinmoyee' (Minu) or 'Fatema-bi', or 'Agnes' might be actually women  possessed of great honour and dignity. On the other hand, it is quite  likely that others who might have names like 'Elokeshi' and 'Paanchi'  might have cheated a lot of sex workers (their own erstwhile comrades)  of their due.    "Kono shala maagi ba dalaaler maathaye morjaadar hishep aanka  nei.Maathai tilok kaata bamun-thakur hoyto-ba morjaadar naap ta nitey  ebong ditey paaren, kintu aamar moto dalaaler eto baar ekhono baareni je  haamesha inchi tape niye nijer morjadar aaga-paanch-tola doirgho-prosto  nepey berabo. Shomoye'r boro obhab, memshayeb, boro shonkot.
 Aar ta  cchara,  koto jinisher hisheb jey ekhono baaki."    yani-ke    "Kisi raand ya bharue ke maathe par uske maryada ka naap-tol likha nahin  hota. Maathey pe tilak kaat kar maryaada ko pongey-pandit naapte honge,  lekin mujh jaise bharuey ki itni aukaad nahin hai ki mai hamesha inchi  tape leke apney maryaade ke lambaai-chaaurai ke maujuda haal ka khabar  detey firun. Time-time ki baat hoti hai mem'saab, aur hamaare paas time  kam hai. Aur bahut kuch baaki hai naapne ko. "    Apologies, readers, for the untranslatable, which must remain more or  less as such. But since ethnic references have come into play with such  full force, I thought it might be interesting to ask how we gloss  'pimping' which describes an activity in relation to 'bong' which  describes the accident of birth, language and to some extent, geography.  I can see quite easily how one can put 'pimps' with 'commission agent'  or 'negotiator' or 'adjuster' or even 'accountant' or 'public relations 
 professional' in one sub set and 'mallus' with 'bongs' and 'uplas' in  another. One is a vocation or profession or calling, and the other is a  description of the language one speaks, or the cultural matrix one  inherits, embedded in, or trapped by.    But the mathematics that allows us to construct a calculation that  involves both 'bongs' and 'pimps' as indices that can be read off each  other in terms of the intensity of dignity is somehow opaque to me. I  want to understand how we can actually conduct this operation, how  'pimp' and 'bong' can be made to stand together as terms with  interchangable valence in the same equation. (How else would we be able  to make a quantitative comparison between these two vis a vis that  enigmatic third term - 'dignity')    Instinctively, I have a sense that what Emma D is saying is right. "Even  pimps have more dignity than certain bong men". But I want to understand  what makes this sentence so accurate. I really do. I will be
 grateful if  Emma d or anyone else, can shed light on this matter.    warm regards, benche thakun, I hope none of you will take amiss my  sincere effort to understand all that is being said, by everyone concerned.    Shuddha,          emma d wrote:      

Thought of what?! I still believe that even pimps have more dignity than  certain Bong men like Shuddha!    And, yes thanks for the "moderator" advice      On 3/1/07, Iram Ghufran <iram at sarai.net> wrote:        

Dear Emma,    You should have thought of that before you make statements like - "Even  pimps have more dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!" on  a public list.    Anyway, I do hope your anxieties regarding list 'moderation' are  satisfied.    Best  Iram      emma d wrote:        

Get a life man! Is there any point in going on and on about Shuddha's  response to Jogis' posting! Seriously, get a life! Besides, I  certainly believe you ought to re-read Shuddha's response entirely  again, wherein he expresses how he "understands" that weirdo's  response to Jogi's crazed posting!    The end? Amen?    On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* <iram at sarai.net <mailto:iram at sarai.net >>  wrote:        Emma,        I think you are confusing issues.        A)  "don't you have anyone to fuck"  is not a nice thing to say to      anyone but these sentiments were expressed in a personal mail by      Abhik.      I chose not to comment on those.        B) "awaiting moderator's approval" is an AUTOMATED response to      TECHNICAL      glitches. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with the content      of the      mail (unless there are attachments)        I think you need to read posting protocols again. They have been      sent on      this list before and I will forward them to
 you in a separate mail.        C) By the way, I think Shuddhabrata's response did express concerns      regarding Abhik's unfortunate statement to Vedavati's provocative      statement. You should read it again.        "Let me clarify at the very beginning that I find the contents of          

the        

    exchange between Vedavati and Abhit (which we have all been      subjected to because of Vedavati's forward, with comment, of      Abhik's off list email to her) sad and deplorable. While Abhik's      language betrays an      unfortunate misogyny, Vedavati's postings and responses are not      exactly exemplars of liberality and tolerance."        Best      Iram        emma d wrote:      > Dear Iram,   It would have been nice if you could have expressed      > similar concerns when the "don't you have anyone to fuck" first      > appeared on the list! Where did the "awaiting moderator's          

approval"        

    > thingy disappear then!   Emma      >      >   On 3/1/07, *Iram Ghufran* < iram at sarai.net      <mailto:iram at sarai.net> <mailto:iram at sarai.net      <mailto:iram at sarai.net >>>      > wrote:      >      >     Dear list members,      >     Please refrain from making personal/ individual statements      regrading      >     other list members and communities on this forum. The reader      list      >     is a      >     non moderated public list. And I guess thats where the          

challenge        

    >     lies -      >     How do we - as members of this list (of more than 1200           

people)          

    >     exercise      >     our freedom of speech? How will our speech acts be      remembered by the      >     archives of this list and read/ understood by people who      browse our      >     public archives in future? No one can stop a list member      from writing      >     what they like but its a personal request - please think      before you      >     click the send button.      >     Best      >     Iram      >     (co - member of reader-list)      >      >      >      >      >     emma d wrote:      >     >      >     > Alright guys enough is enough! This is not to condone the      >     outrageously      >     > content of the blog Vedvati wanted us to visit, or to          

condone        

    >     Abhik's      >     > response to the same (makes me wonder what kind of a      background he      >     > comes from), but Shuddhabrata you really take the cake. A      pseudo      >     like      >     > you seems to "understand" Abhik's posting! Even pimps have      more      >     > dignity than some Bong men, some Bong men like you!      >     >      >            

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