[Reader-list] Interview With New Amir of Jamaat-e Islami Hind, Maulana Jalaluddin Umri

[Yogi Sikand]

72-year old Maulana Jalaluddin Umri was recently elected the Amir or
President of the Jamaat-e Islami Hind. In this interview with Nigar
Ataulla and Yoginder Sikand he talks about his vision for the Jamaat
in the coming years.

Q: Could you tell us something about yourself and your background?
A: I was born in a village in North Arcot district in Tamil Nadu in
1935. I studied in an Urdu school in my village and then went to a
well-known  madrasa in Oomerabad,  the Jamia Dar us-Salaam, where I
completed a nine-year fazil course. After that, I spent a little more
than two years at the Jamaat-e Islami Hind's headquarters, then in
Rampur, in Uttar Pradesh. There, I studied informally from various
scholars. In 1956 I joined the Jamaat-e Islami as a member and began
working with the Idara-e Tasneef, the Jamaat's research and
publications department and continued there for around 15 years.
Thereafter, I shifted to Aligarh, where I edited the Jamaat's monthly
Zindagi for some years and then took to editing the quarterly Islamic
research journal Tahqiqat-e Islami, which I have carried on for the
last twenty-five years. .

Q: What particular areas would you like to focus on as the new Amir of
the Jamaat-e Islami?

A: I think we should carry on in the same broad direction as before,
although giving particular attention to some issues that have not
perhaps received the sort of focus that they should have. One of these
is inter-faith or inter-community dialogue. The Quran stresses this
and says that Muslims should seek to dialogue with others, no matter
what their religion. This is also a means to tell others about Islam.
The Jamaat has been doing this sort of work for many years, such as
through publishing translations of the Quran in various languages and
bringing out a Hindi magazine, Kanti, since 1958, which has a large
number of non-Muslim readers. But I feel that we must give more focus
to dialogue work than we have in the past. Islam has been present in
India for more than a thousand years, but yet a large section of
non-Muslim Indians remain ignorant about it. They wrongly think that
it is the religion of a particular community of people known as
Muslims, while actually Islam addresses itself to the entire
humankind. And so they mistakenly think that if some people among such
a numerically large community as the Indian Muslims commit a wrong
act, in doing so they are dictated by their religion, which is not
true. After all, there are people who do bad deeds in all communities.
So, dialogue is also essential to tell others about Islam and to
remove the misconceptions they might have about Islam and Muslims.

Inter-faith dialogue is necessary to preserve and protect the
democratic set-up of the country, so that each community is given its
rights, including the right to freely practice and propagate its
religion. If there's no dialogue there will be conflict and that
augurs ill for the progress of the country as a whole. Through
dialogue we can tell others about the Islamic perspective on various
social and ethical issues. We want democracy to get strengthened. A
vibrant democratic environment guarantees such processes of dialogue
and reaching out, leading to a cultural fusion which can pave the way
for the peaceful co-existence of different cultural streams in this
country. We, of course, do not want to force anything on anyone. You
can listen to what we have to say if you want, or else you can refuse,
but that democratic space for articulating different views must be
preserved.

Q: So, what you are saying is that dialogue is also a means to address
issues of common social concern. Is that right?
A: Yes, of course. The Jamaat's efforts to reach out to non-Muslims
have so far been quite limited, restricted mainly to a particular
class. The question is of how to make this effort more mass-based.
Islam has not become an issue for India, except in a negative sense,
as reflected in the negative stereotypical images of Islam and Muslims
in the media. We need to make efforts to see that Islam is focused on
in this country, but in the positive sense—in terms of providing
solutions for the country's problems, through which people of
different communities can work together for common purposes.
Unfortunately, we have not made use of the media as we should have for
this sort of work, for which there is much scope and potential.

Q: Given this, do you feel the need for any shift in the Jamaat's media policy?
A: Certainly. We need to use the mass media to clear people's
misconceptions about Islam and Muslims and to show them the positive
role that Islam and its adherents can play in addressing problems
facing the country. The Jamaat brings out magazines and periodicals in
various languages, but these have not been very effective in
influencing public opinion, because they are read mainly by Muslims
themselves. If a story or a report is published in one of our
magazines, it does not receive attention outside a limited, mainly
Muslim, circle. But if the same story is published in a 'mainstream'
newspaper it does. It becomes an issue. This reflects the fact that
our media is not very effective in reaching out to a wider,
particularly non-Muslim, readership or audience. One exception to this
is the Malayalam periodical that we publish from Kerala, Madhyamam,
which has a large readership, including among non-Muslims, and which
also plays a role in shaping or influencing Kerala politics.

Q: Some years ago the Jamaat set up what it called its Media Cell. How
has that been functioning?
A: I don't think it has been very effective. The Media Cell limited
itself to documenting articles or reports in the media that concern
Muslims and providing information on such issues to Jamaat leaders. I
think we need to move much beyond this and build up a proper media
team. This holds true for other Muslim organizations as well, so that
their voices are heard beyond the confines of the community, too. Now,
for this, I think it is crucial to reach out to non-Muslims in the
media. There are many Hindus and others in the media who strongly
believe that different views should be allowed to flourish. We need to
approach them to put forward our views and the concerns of Muslims.

Q: But do you see a tendency on the part of the non-Muslim Indian
media to present Muslims and Islam in a particular negative light?
A: Such tendencies are there, but we must not generalise. Yes, some
forces have a vested interest in propagating such stereotypically
negative views about Islam and Muslims. Once, a non-Muslim told me,
'Muslims did this and that in India when they ruled the country'. I
simply answered, 'I am not a historian. I can only talk of Islam. I
can only say if a deed done by a certain person calling himself a
Muslim—be it the Mughal Emperor Babur or Akbar or Aurangzeb—was in
accordance with Islam or not. I cannot defend any ruler simply because
he claimed to be Muslim, if his actions were not in accordance with
Islam'. I told him, 'You should not equate Islam with Muslims or with
Muslim rulers'. Unfortunately, that is what a large section of the
media actually does.

But, that said, one has to say that there are many fair-minded Hindus
and others in the Indian media. They want to present the facts about
Muslims and Islam in an objective manner, because they believe that
Muslims, as fellow Indians and as human beings, ought to have their
rights as well as lives protected. In fact, some of these people were
far more vocal in highlighting and protesting against the recent
massacre of Muslims in Gujarat than Muslim media persons. We need to
reach out to such people. This we can do through organizing seminars,
conferences, etc.. The Jamaat has tried doing this, but we really must
expand our work in this regard. Further, we should encourage Muslims,
including those associated with the Jamaat, to enter the media,
including the non-Muslim-owned media, where they can present Islam and
Muslims in an objective and fair manner and highlight the problems of
the community.

Q:  The Jamaat has been accused of seeking to dialogue with
anti-Muslim Hindutva forces, including the RSS. This, for instance,
happened in the 1970s, during the state of Emergency declared by
Indira Gandhi. Is this a fair assessment? And is there any point of
dialoguing with such groups whose ideology is itself based on a
violently anti-Muslim agenda?

A:  See, during the Emergency, RSS and Jamaat people were together in
prison. Just because the RSS was banned, the Government banned us as
well, in order to present itself as 'balanced'. So, in jail we lived
together from morning to evening. We had the opportunity to dialogue
only with them, not because we felt that they were the only people we
should dialogue with, but because there were few other people with us
in jail. So, that was just a question of chance. However, you can say
that after Jamaat activists were released from jail they did not make
full use of the opportunities they had to engage in dialogue work at a
broader level. Maybe they were too caught up in trying to revive the
Jamaat after being in prison for almost two years.

Now, as for your question as to whether or not there is any use
dialoguing with Hindutva groups, I say that let anyone be anything,
that should not stop us from our task of telling others about our
faith. After all, there were many people who were very opposed to
Islam at the time of the Prophet, but the Prophet did not stop his
preaching, and, ultimately, they were impressed by what he preached
and by his example and so they accepted Islam. So, human beings can
change their views over time. But, of course, if you feel that after
consistently trying to convince someone of your stand he refuses to
listen then you should turn your attention to others.

Q: Some Muslim leaders and organizations argue that Muslims must
dialogue particularly with other similarly marginalized communities in
the country, such as Dalits, Adivasis and other so-called 'low'
castes, instead of seeking to dialogue with 'upper' caste Hindus. What
are your views on this?
A: See, Islam is for all people, not just for a particular community.
So, we have to reach out to all. However, it is true that
historically, in India and in many other places, Islam appealed
particularly to the poor and the oppressed. But this it did not by
instigating the poor against the rich but by stressing the rights that
the poor have on the rich and the fact that we are all fellow
creatures of God. In God's eyes, it is piety, not poverty or riches
that count.

That said, yes, I agree that we also need to address other
marginalized communities living in India. This should be based on the
conviction that all peoples must get the rights that the Constitution
of India promises them as citizens of the country. We must support
every group, irrespective of religion or caste, to get these rights if
they are denied them, because the state itself says that these rights
belong to all. If anyone commits aggression or oppresses someone else,
we, as Muslims, have the duty to denounce this.

Dialogue between Muslims and Dalits and other such marginalized
communities has not really taken any systematic form. Sometimes such
groups seek to cooperate with the Jamaat or with Muslims at the
political level, on political issues and for political purposes. They
really do not have any concern with what Islam has to say. Their point
is simply that we are marginalized and so too are you, and so we
should join hands. But I feel that this should not be the only issue
for unity. We must also be able to tell them about how Islam can
address their problems and concerns.

Q: There is talk now of the Jamaat considering joining the field of
electoral politics. Is this true?
A: Yes. Earlier we had decided to participate in local level elections
in some states, and in some places we have actually done so. This is
in order to provide an opportunity for us to serve people. But because
we are not very influential now, we have decided that at the state or
national level we should support those parties who champion rights for
all as against parties, such as those based on the Hindutva ideology,
that seek to impose a particular culture on all Indians.

Q: The Congress-led Government-appointed Sachar Commission has just
come out with its Report, which clearly shows the levels of
marginalisation that Muslims suffer in India. Do you think the
Government will act on the recommendations of the Report?
A: I don't know if the Government is at all serious about doing
anything about these recommendations or if it is simply using the
Report as a vote-grabbing gimmick by pleasing Muslims by making
promises that it will not keep. The Report does not tell us anything
new. Previous Government-appointed commissions, such as the Gopal
Singh Committee, made the same point about Muslim marginalisation. But
at least the Sachar Commission has prepared a detailed document, with
figures and statistics to back it, which can be used to counter the
Hindutva claim about alleged 'Muslim appeasement' and to show the
level of Muslim marginalisation. Suppose a Muslim organization had
prepared a report like the Sachar Commission Report, making the same
arguments and presenting the same statistics and facts, many
non-Muslims, as well as the Government, may not have accepted it. They
might have accused it of being unreliable and biased simply because a
Muslim organization had commissioned it. But now a
Government-appointed Commission has highlighted the deplorable
conditions of the Muslims, so no one can deny this.

So, as I said, I do not know if the Government will act on any or some
or all of the recommendations of the Sachar Commission. All I can say
is that, besides making some announcements, so far nothing practical
has been done by the Government in this regard.

Q: That's about the role of the state in addressing the fact of Muslim
economic and educational marginalisation. What role do you see for
Muslim organizations like the Jamaat?
A: The Jamaat has been involved in setting up educational and health
institutions in a modest way. This is particularly the case in South
India, where individuals associated with the Jamaat, along with local
people, have set up schools, colleges and hospitals, several of which
also cater to non-Muslims, too. I think we need to increase our focus
on social and educational development-related issues, to benefit
Muslims as well as non-Muslims. We need to work out means to promote
both modern as well as religious education among the Muslim youth
especially, because, particularly in the north, Muslims lag behind in
education and the school drop-out rate is very high. Without modern
education the community cannot progress and so this should be one of
our major priorities. Of course, we have limited resources for all
this, because, after all, we are not a state!

Q: In South India the Jamaat seems better organized and more socially
engaged than in the North, although the majority of the Indian Muslims
reside in North India. Perhaps this is also true for other Muslim
organizations. How do you account for this?
A: Yes, this is true. Before the Partition, North India was leading.
Most Muslim leaders, religious and political, came from there,
especially from Delhi and what is now Uttar Pradesh. But the Partition
hit North Indian Muslims particularly badly. Many middle-class and
modern educated Muslims of the area migrated to Pakistan. Then came
the Zamindari abolition, which hit the Muslim landlord class in the
north. This, and the sub-division of small holdings, reduced large
numbers of Muslims to penury. In contrast, the Partition did not
affect South India much, except for small pockets like Hyderabad. Few
South Indian Muslims migrated to Pakistan. Economically, too, they
were saved the drastic decline that the North Indian Muslims faced,
because there were and still are strong Muslim trading groups in the
south. Then, unlike in South India, in large parts of the north,
Muslims, in their opposition to British rule, also opposed English
education, which made them lag behind. Also, historically, relations
between Hindus and Muslims in South India have been much better than
in the north, which, for centuries, has witnessed so many battles and
conflicts. Because of this, Muslims in the south have been able to
organize themselves and establish institutions for the community in a
much more effective way than in the north. In Tamil Nadu, where I come
from, Muslims form just around five per cent of the population, but
there is a substantial well-educated and prosperous class among them.
In contrast to the north, Muslims are more respected in Tamil Nadu.
So, for instance, you won't find anyone deliberately annoying Muslims
by playing music before mosques there and so on. Although communal
forces are getting strong in the south now, I think this difference
with the north still remains, by and large.

Q: Given the fact that various Islamist groups are engaged in the
Kashmir conflict, what role do you think an Islamic organization such
as the Jamaat-e Islami can play in finding a solution to the problem?
A: There is no alternative to better relations between India and
Pakistan. The Kashmir conflict can only be solved through peaceful
dialogue. We have had three wars over Kashmir already and we are not
any closer to a solution for this. Both India and Pakistan are atomic
powers and if they decide to fight each other, not just Kashmir, but
the whole of the subcontinent can go into flames. The best way out is
to recognize that Kashmir is an issue and then arrive at a solution
that satisfies India, Pakistan and the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir.

Q: Some Islamist groups in Pakistan and Kashmir claim that the Kashmir
conflict is essentially a war between Islam and 'infidelity'. How do
you see this argument?
A: No, no, the issue is entirely political. It has nothing to do with
religion. It is not, as some might say, a conflict between Islam and
infidelity. What the Kashmiris are asking for is the right to
political self-determination. I don't know of any Kashmiri militant
group which claims that its struggle is aimed at establishing an
Islamic system of governance in Kashmir.

Q: But groups like the Lashkar-e Tayyeba and the Hizb ul-Mujahidin,
for instance, make that sort of claim.
A: No, this is wrong. They might say that they want to establish
Nizam-e Mustafa or an Islamic state, but, in actual fact, the conflict
does not relate to religion as such but to the fact that in 1947
Kashmir was an independent state and that its inhabitants had the
right to decide their own political future. I don't think the conflict
is about establishing an Islamic state, in contrast to what some
groups might claim. Actually, one does not even know what the
Kashmiris actually want. Some might want independence. Others might
want to join Pakistan or India. But, as I said, the only way out is
through peaceful dialogue, not violence, and the sooner the parties to
the conflict realize this, the better.


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Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye
Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roye

The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping
The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping