[Reader-list] Reply to junaid mails on Invasion of Indian culture
we wi
dhatr1i at yahoo.com
Tue Oct 16 16:16:03 IST 2007
Dear Partha,
Go through the chain mail in particular the one below YUG,MERU... ? You will come to know how you wrote and then read my response on Indian-ness. Any way I received the details about you yesterday! Although Its just a second matter for me to manage you by controlling all my emotions but, ...let me finish!
--As per the proverb,
"Robbers can steal Material wealth but they have nothing to do with knowledge"
The relevance is, despite of people tornishing(ruining the physical existance), the sacredness and the knowledge imbibed into the lives which no body can eliminate/anhillate. This is the point in mentioning the Yug history and MERU or sankalp.
My family practice vaidic karma(there are daily early morning prayers starts with GAYATRI,afternoon nivedan before lunch ,upvas,vrata and festivals(lets say for the purpose of relative gathering atleast) apart from that my father offer YEARWISE ABDIKA(the day on which the death of his forefathers occured long ago)(SAMVATSARIK) to his died elders (ancestors and inlaws for remembering them atleast I can say) ) and believe in god and good. Ours is not the only family following this so strictly,
Like the politicians and coroporate do the things in such a way that common people couldn't believe(unless they practically experience) and prove, the God is also the same.
Also
1) You tell me what exactly you expect me to do or people adviced you to do with me???
2) Let me know what exactly you do in meetings? I am verymuch interested to know how your meetings are different than that of mine?
Though you are partha, I am not lord krishna to offer you special vision TO SEE ALL THE LOGICS.
P.S: I will delete this account by this November.
Regards,
Dhatri.
Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dhatri,
Was out of office on meetings second half of the day, and though I did see your mail, didn't get the time to sit down and respond.
To get back to the issue of the debate, I fail to see where my mail was provoking as all I did is question the provenance of your claims about J&K being a 'Hindu Nation' wherein you replied with a host of information about Brahma and the ages... but nothing in response to the issues that were raised.
If you think I am 'skipping' your questions that's because I didn't see any questions in the mass of information you copied and pasted from a previous mail. In case you really have questions, why don't you do what most people do - and list the questions out? I'm sure you'll notice that's precisely what I did. And as a Computer Graduate you'll be familiar with the concept of logic and framing a statement or a question.
As for the issue of your being a male or a female - that's irrelevant. This is a debate forum where we exchange ideas and concepts irrespective of gender, caste or religion - or even region of current domicile.
In case my questions are not clear as to why I thought your response to the post was a complete tangent and you responded to a mention that has not been made here, do let me know, and I will list them out again along with a copy of this initial post which has no reference to Brahma, Yug, Meru and all the other stuff you have responded with.
I do not question your faith in God, as that is a personal belief and can never be proved, but only believed. However, I do question the chain of logic you have followed - and if you really think as a Computer Graduate that the logic is complete, then as one IT professional to another, show me the chain of logic without the copy and paste which hides the issue and presents no facts.
Regards, Partha
...................................
On 10/15/07, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: Dear Partha,
Initially you tried to force your view on me through SARAI by writing a provoking mail.
Its ok. Simple reason junaid is questioning the sovereignty of INDIA and making false statements about JAMMU & KASHMIR and creating fallacious supportive argument to MUSLIMS. Your arguments are framed in such a way that INDIA is a dumb in many ways.
May be I am dumb but what about India? I know you were asked to condemn whatever I say. You simply skipping of many of my questions for different reasons.
You tell me what exactly you expect me to do or people ad viced you to do with me???
Write down in plain direct words, and don't assume that since dhatri is a female hence can be manageable or dominated.
Regards,
Dhatri.
Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dhatri,
Am replying to this off the post for the simple reason that this is a dialogue between you and me, and Sarai doesn't really have a role to play.
Also, what I'd like to make clear is that I don't doubt your IT skills (since you're obviously online and replying to Sarai). What I did deny is the veracity of Wikepedia as a source.
However, Gandharv, Meru, etc aside - I really don't get the link between what Junaid said and your response(s).
Traditional or not, you obviously know and use modern technology and information as well as sources of reference, yet you accept a few like Wikepedia which makes it clear that there is no veracity in it's statements and deny others that have documented sources of verification.
It is a known fact that Aryans (and the caste system) came to the Indian subcontinent well after the Dravid's were in residence - yet they along with all others have been assimilated into India. Do you deny this fact?
It is also accepted that religion has nothing to do with region, and something I presume that both of us are agreeing to.
I would really like to understand the answers you have given me with reference to Junaid's mail and my questions as I completely fail to understand what points of the debate you are responding to by mentioning the Peacock Throne or temple.
Let us forget Caste reservation as that is another debate all together.
Regards, Partha
.......................................
On 10/13/07, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: Partha,
Really?
EVEN I AM INTO IT, I am a POST GRADUATE IN COMPUTER SCIENCE. Whats your greatness of somebody else greatness of being into 21st century/IT etc., But I am traditional(not orthodox and not modern).
GANDHARV,YAKSH,KINNER,KIMPURUSH are all fall into divine category.
(Holiness/--sainthood in your terms :P)
Himalayas are divine and demons occupied them now.
MERU is at MANAS SAROVAR -- occupied by CHINA,
kashmire SHARADA DEVI .... LANKAYAM SHANKARI.
Sharda temple is in J&K at POK(PAKISTAN OCCUPIED KASHMIR).
>>I do hope you have read up on Indian history and discovered that many INDIAN
>>people converted to Islam because of oppression by caste. They are still residents
>>of India with an equal right to vote or express their opinion.
While there are so many other religions are available and More freedom is there in them, Why do anybody choose Islam? They do have their own reasons and how does ones anger reflect except causing the disintegration((self or community)) due to force/confusion created due to exploitation of the system by somebody or self for whatever interests?
Every religion is copy cat of HINDUISM, and do have dual categories why ???
Why reservations in India in the name of caste???
Why religion and caste is there in Indian life then from birth,schooling,jobs,death???
Have you ever heard about SRI CHAKRA?
Could you please tell me the impact on foreign astrological calculations(websites and astologers foreign) and their truthfulness due to expulsion of PLUTO as a PLANET from the Solar system? Does that mean Whatever they predicted is wrong? Doesn't it clearly show they looted money through credit cards??? How will they adjust this expulsion and calculate the time now??? Should anybody in the world believe it or not???
I understood that you write something whatever I post. Leave Wikepedia,scriptures what about this. In Every part of India, some birth,marriage,death used to happen on seconds(least measurable time frame) basis apart from that people are there living and practicing the below line into their daily prayers(Officially at temples and personally at home). THIS IS REAL thing happening along with TIME. Even the same is the official calender for GOI(Government of India). Pl try to listen any Indian Radio channel(Irrespective of language) at morning 5:56(IST) minutes
"PRAVARTA MANASYA, ADYA BRAHMANA,DWITEEYA PARAADHE,SWEETAVARAH KALPE, VAIVASWATA MANVANTARE, KALI YUGE,PRDHAMA PAADE, JAMBU DWEEPE, BHARATA VARSHE, BHARATA KHADE, MERU... ASMIN VARTHAMAANA VYAVAHARIK CHANDRAMAANEENA ,PRABHAVAADI SHASTI SAMVATSARAANAM MADHYE,SRI SARVAJITH NAAM VATSARE,DAKSHINAAYANE,VARSHA RUTAU,AASWAYUJA MAASE,SUKLA PAKSHE,VIDIYA MYAYAM,STHIRA VASARA
Translation:
_________
Adya Brahmanaha : Beginning from Brahma's life.
Dvitheeya Parardhe : we are now in 2nd Parardha.
Sweta Varaha Kalpe : In Swetha Varaha Kalpa.
Vyvaswata manvantare : Manu's name is Vyvaswatha
Kaliyuge : We are now in Kali Yug
Pratham paade : Ist Padaâjust in 52nd century
Of Brahma.
Christian Year 2007 ---- SARVAJITH NAAM vathsare (yeaar)
Ayan: ---- DAKSHINAYAN
RUTU ---- VARSH RUTU
Month: ---- ASHVAYUJ MAase
Paksh: ---- Sukla Pakshe
Thithi: ---- VIDIYA
Day ( SATURDAY) ---- STHIRA vasara
Too deep explanation:
___________________
KRITA YUG = 17,28,000 YEARS TRETA YUG = 12,96,000 YEARS
DWAPARA YUG = 8,64,000 YEARS
KALI YUG = 4,32,000 YEARS
---------------------------------
TOTAL= 43,20,000 YEARS
---------------------------------
1000 CHATUR YUGAS = 1 day of Brahma ( kalpa)
1000 CHATUR YUGAS = 1 night of Brahma.
2000 CHATUR YUGAS = 1 day & night of Brahma
360 DAYS OF BRAHMA = 1 year of Brahma.
100 YEARS OF BRAHMA = Brahma's full age and that
is the duration of the great
Deluge too.
50 YEARS OF BRAHMA = PARARDHA.
TWO PARARDHAS = Life span of Brahma i.e., 100
Years which is equal to:
31104,000,00,00,000 or
311040 billion human years.
After that, pralaya equal to the duration of two Parardhas take place, and at its end, a new cycle of creation starts with a new Brahma at its head.
1) laya, at the end of a mahayuga, when the physical world is destroyed;
2) pralaya, at the end of a kalpa, when both the physical and subtle worlds are destroyed; and
3) mahapralaya at the end of a mahakalpa, when all three worlds (physical, subtle and causal) are absorbed into Shiv.
Brahma has now completed one Parardha. He is now in His 51st year. He has thus passed 50 X 360 = 18,000 Kalpas.
The first Kalpa is called Brahma and the last Padma. The current Kalpa is SWETA VARAHA KALPA.
Within each Kalpa 14 Manus reign; a Manvantara, or period of a Manu, therefore is consequently one-fourteenth part of a Kalpa, or day of Brahma.
"In the present Kalpa, six Manus, of whom Swayambhu was the first, have already passed away; the present being Vaivaswata.
Brahma creates and his own life time is 2 Parardhas i.e; 100 years of Brahma and His date of death is certain.
Historians/foreigners measure time scale(this age,that age,cabbage and cauliflower or whatever flower into your ears or some body else hair). But the above one(SANKALP) has been coming as a part of Indian way of life and will continue to go.
BRAHMA(out of 100) COMPLETED 52 YEARS AND 48 REMAINING, I could not foresee the KALI ERA and the life ahead at Brahma's 100th year(at pralaya time).
If I say because you got married to a christian(though its a conceptual one, I doubt on you), one Hindu girl lost a good husband and got unmarried and living whats your reaction???
Even after my spoon feeding mail, explaining the relevance(depicting the false facts like PEACOCK THROWN WAS BUILT BY MUGHAL KINGS thats true but the material used is the stolen/robbed one,KASHMIRI PUNDITS made muslims as slaves) I doubt your understanding skills and your employer/business capabilities.
Regards,
Dhatri.
Partha Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com > wrote:
Dear Dhatri,
Once again you jump around the debate on a tangent which has no relevance to what Junaid had mentioned. Also, since Sarai is a public forum for debate, we all raise issues here - like the one you had raised about Zero being discovered by India.
In any case, to go back to the points you raised.
1. Jammu & Kashmir being a "Hindu" kingdom.
If you are referring to the rulers being 'Hindu', then Junaid has shown you the fallacy.
If you refer to the majority being 'Hindu' then that to is a fallacy. Firstly because J&K
has a large Muslim population as well as Tribals. I presume you are aware that a
'Hindu' is one who believes in the trinity of Bramha, Vishnu and Shiva - and that
tribals follow Yakshas and Yakhsis - which means that they are not 'Hindu'.
Further, India is not a 'Hindu' country. The only Hindu nation I'm aware of is Nepal.
And as you must be aware, the Hindu king there has caused much pain and death
till there was a public revolt.
The 'India' you are referring to pre-independence was actually a non-federation of
independents rulers (who would more often than not be warring and looting other
kingdoms).
And if you really want to go that far back, shouldn't 'India' reject all tribes but the
Dravid's who are the original inhabitants of this geographical place.
By your logic of everyone being 'migrants', then all races in India other
than Dravid's are migrants. So, are you going to give up your claim to India?
More importantly, you seem to continuously get confused between religion and
the region of people. If for example a Bengali converts to Buddhism, would you
insist on sending him to Japan (even though Buddhism's roots are in India) or
if he converted to being a Muslim does that change the fact that he's still a
Bengali?
I do hope you have read up on Indian history and discovered that many INDIAN
people converted to Islam because of oppression by caste. They are still residents
of India with an equal right to vote or express their opinion.
2. You use Wikepedia as a reference (and so do I). However, as an IT professional am
aware that Wikepedia is a collective effort where anyone can make a post. And that
the veracity of information there is not complete - which is why it gives references to
places it has used information from as 'probable' history.
3. The article you've mentioned about the Kohinoor makes it very clear that most of it's
sources are rumours and hearsay - which is why the mention conflicting sources and
claims so that the reader is open to make his / her interpretation. It also makes it clear
that ownership claims have been made by India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran as the
actual origin is a matter of historical dispute.
4. From what I understood of Junaid's mail, he talked about the existence and oppression
of Muslims in the princely state of J&K (which didn't have much to do with the Kohinoor
or the Peacock Throne) which is why there was a revolt - much like there is one in the
Hindu nation of Nepal.
5. From what little I've read and understood, Indian history and tradition is a mix of Mughal,
Mongol, Portugese, Dravid, Roman, Grecian, Aryan and a host of other influences. The
thought of India I have always loved as a secular nation (even before independence,
actually) that assimilated concepts and people - inclusive and not exclusive. If you
really are a follower of Indian tradition then look at how we inculcated all these influences
(including English as an official language!) and used it to grow and move forward instead
of closing our minds.
Finally, are we looking at a resolution, are are we insistent upon staying enveloped in blind hate that shouts down everything except our angst irrespective of the logic. Maybe Juniad's angst is not as recent as yours, but it does exist, as does yours.
So, what do we do? Keep fighting on small irrelevant issues like the Kohinoor or look at a way to resolve the larger issue that is causing so much pain, death and misery?
What's more important?
If you still think that your mail was not off on a tangent from the issues raised by Junaid, please fell free to correct me. However, I could not find any link between the points raised by Junaid and your response, or any facts behind your claims (with even Wikepedia making it abundantly clear that it can not verify sources).
Rgds, Partha
..............................
On 10/13/07, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: Dear Partha,
Why SARAI was being chosen as an avenue to gossip and rumour about JAMMU and KASHMIR?
Junaid writings are clearly objectionable because of many reasons. Among them let me pinpoint
1) Hindu kings did this, that against whatever so called Muslim population?
Clearly Jammu and Kashmir is a HINDU KINGDOM like wise many kingdoms and kings and so as then population and culture.
Let me ask you in a country/kingdom where there exists only HINDUS(by any time), if anybody else exists aren't they migrants? What do they be called? Instead of living peacefully why would they continue attacking heritage and culture?
If they started doing things in wrong way how will authorities react? Going further If they continue ransacking by misusing the liberty What to do?
2) PEACOCK THROWN was built with Koh-i-Noor. The history of kohinoor is!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor .
Junaid clearly do not know this. With lack of knowledge like this he is writing on SARAI.
Forget the manners but the schools they studied taught wrong lectures, the atmosphere they grew taught -ve and violence. Did they question themselves before doing any such -ve,violent acts? for just 1000 years of history and existence they are shouting like this then for being own the history and existence of unmeasurable age how Hinduism/India/Indians/Hindu followers should feel about and react???
I can produce sin,cos and cotangents also if you QUOTE my replies are unrelated tangent. But if you look at mails on SARAI list, they are in such a provoking way that atleast I could not show lenience. By writing like this I just invest 5 minutes of my writing and 30 minutes of surfing time.
So junaid comments on
1) JAMMU & KASHMIR with its culture and population then and KASHMIR PUNDITS (now)is totally wrong.
2) ISLAM is a myth just.
Not only junaid but many are doing the same.
I am just an ordinary person and with the above justification hope you will not use the word unrelated tangent again.
Regards,
Dhatri.
Partha Dasgupta < parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dhatri,
One of the reasons we were asked off the list for two weeks was that you keep going off on unrelated tangents.
Please, please stick to replying to points raised in the current post, and if you wish to respond to another post, then do it on that post and not any one that you happen to click on.
Rgds, Partha
On 10/12/07, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: Junaid,
Though people are busy in false accusations,interpretations and assaults on INDIA, Its culture and to support this there is no need to argue endlessly, but to enlighten people like you who are doing intentionally, I am writing this again.
I used enlighten because either
1) You don't know about Indian history and culture-- to support this is I prefer to use your earlier comments on PEACOCK THROWN. I request you to go through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor,
2) If you spread rumors purposefully, then I remind you that you will not succeed like Pakistan and China. Indian heritage is rich and culture is widespread across the globe. Every HINDU home contain, atleast few ancestral,cultural,spiritual,traditional wealths/residue whatever you say.
From the beginning of its origin to the present, ISLAM produced violence that is the fact though its unfortunate and so as people. So violent in thoughts leave 1/2 exceptional cases for whatever reasons . You can say whatever but ISLAM IS MIGRATION TO INDIA. Please just keep it in mind.
Regards,
Dhatri.
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