[Reader-list] By R.J. Rummel

[rashneek kher]

Dear Shuddha,

Sorry for spelling your name wrong.I apologise for the mistake.
Nonetheless here we go.
I have read Rajiv Sapru's piece in Vitasta.Infact I am a regular subscriber
to Vitasta myself..
I may not be as good as you when to comes to using citations but let us get
it straight here.Knowledge of history is more important than knowing how to
give citations.Here I am sorry but I submit not to embrass you but to qoute
truth.
Rajatarangni is considered the most credible and authentic source on history
of mediveal and ancient Kashmir.Although Mr.Sapru is a nice person but I am
afraid he and you both need a crash course on how pieces on History are
written.I liked your "cut,copy and paste" job out of  koausa
website.Mr.Sapru has not substantiated what he has written,there is no
source qouted.Like me he seems not to have learned from your enlightened
self,about citations.
Please read Kalhana's Rajatarangni(Book V-128 to 227) and you will know that
Kalhana has no where mentioned that Sankarvarman destroyed
Parihaspura.Qouting Mr.Sapru as a source is like qouting me on some
Molecular Biology topic of which I can be at best be a student.
Learn to qoute from sources which are considered authentic and credible,not
mamus,chachus and tayas.
As reagrds Buddhism in Kashmir,you must not forget that it was because of
kashmiri scholars like Kumarjiv and Nagarjuna that Buddhism reached South
East Asia.I would also suggest that you read Dr,Advaitavadini Kaul's post
doctoral work "Buddhist Savants of Kashmir"No where has she found any
evidence of Hindu kings breaking Buddhist Viharas.The contribution of
Kashmiris in spreading of Buddhism is immense and we feel proud of our
syncretic contributions to the subcontinent.
Now we to go Islam and how it was spread.Of course it would be ideal that
you read Jonaraja,Srivara,Prajabhatta and Shuka to know the truth for
yourself but since you may have aversion to Brahman scholarship
Baharistan-i-Shahi and Tarikh-i-Hassan Khuihami might be the right ones for
you.It will take you some time to discover for yourself not just how
annihilation of "infidels" was a state policy but how such acts were
glorified in the name of Islam.The establishment of Islam in Kashmir and
conversion of Rinchan to Islam is itself a testament to
that.AgainBaharaistan-i-Shahi would be good source to know how spread
of Islam
happened.Shah-i-Hmadan's role is partcularly intriguing.In Hamadan no one
seems to know anything of him,I have spent months looking for any clues on
him and came back as clueless as I had gone to Iran.
I have written it in my mail to Wali Arifi(you probably missed it) that I
would love to live under a king like Bad-shah.So no questions about
it.Infact I have written a column recently where I have compared his rule
with that of Lalitaditya and Avantivarman.
Now let us to got the Kali Mandir which is a khanqah now.Do you know it was
Birbal Kachru who was the first soldier of Kashmir's independence.He lost
his entire family to cruel Afghan rulers because he sought help from Sikhs
to liberate Kashmir.His family was taken away by the Afghans and he never
heard of them again.It was incidentally Birbal Kachru(read History of
Kashmiri Pandits by Jia Lal Kilam,he was also a supporter of Independent
Kashmir)who persuaded Sikhs not to destory this Khanqah.They wanted to
rebuild the Kali temple after destroying the mosque that exists there.
Unless the self styled flag bearers recognise the contribution of Hindus to
the nationalist movement of Kashmir we would but be puting the cart before
the horse.It is time they understand and appreciate that people like Nadim
infused kashmiri nationalism into masses they may win Kashmir but only to
destroy it.
Also please note that after 14th century Kashmir has not produced any great
scholar.Compare that to the time when we Kashmir was the seat of learning
and in 400 years of cultural renaissance we had
Abhinaygupta,Anandvardhana,Bilhana,Kalhana,Sarangdev not to mention
thousands of other scholars like Mamat,Vasugupt,Mahimbhatta.I am not
mentioning people like Allama,Chakbast,Kunzru and  Rushdie here because they
prospered elsewhere and not in Kashmir.
It is time you dont preach secularism to us.We had till date protected naga
temples and shrines and it was us who revered
them.IncidentallyNilmatapurana(a vashnavaite purana written in
Kashmir) mentions Buddha as
one of the re-incarnations of Vishnu.In Kashmir Saivate,Buddhist,Vaishnavite
traditions lived and prospered together.
I will be glad to learn from you about Bengal's history of which I know
little.
I again apologise for spelling your name wrong.

Hosh Bar Dam,nazar bar kadam
dar majlis,dar anjuman

Regards

Rashneek







On 9/3/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Rashneek,
>
> I have had no no desire to enter into an exhibition wrestling match
> about who knows more about the history of ancient and medieval Kashmir
> with you. I find the 'my scholarship is better than yours' variety of
> exchange tiresome, and not because I am not confident about my
> scholarship. I have resisted doing this till now, out of some sympathy
> for your commitment to your cause, not because I agree with it. But even
> my patience has limits.
>
> Let me just say that I am more than familiar with the sources you
> mention, and with several of the sources of the history of ancient and
> medieval Kashmir, not only because I am interested in the history of
> Kashmi (which I am) but also because there are remarkable parallels with
> the history of ancient and medieval Bengal.
>
> Both outposts, at either northern end of South Asia, were primarily
> Buddhist, used a variant of the Sarada script, and in both places the
> Buddhist cultural and social substratum was overwhelmed  by the early
> medieval brahminical revival, both were spearheads of tantric cults
> (Buddhist, Shaivite and Shakta) and both were ruled for long years by
> muslim kings, and became overwhelmingly muslim majority areas, not out
> of force but due to the way in which sufi orders (often quite syncretic
> in their practices) addressed ordinary and lower caste population, in
> both areas - a small Hindu upper caste elite that was patronized by
> Muslim kings, and in many ways protected by a large mass of muslim
> peasantry due to the sheer thickness of  day to day ritual obligations,
> shared customary practices and other relationships. There would not have
> been any Hindus in Bengal or in Kashmir if, the peasant muslim masses of
> Bengal and Kashmir had decided that they did not want any Hindus around.
> The weight of muslim numbers, in Bengal and in Kashmir, would have been
> enough.
>
> I have also no doubts about the veracity of the texts you mention.
> Muslim kings, like the kings and satraps of all religions destroyed, and
> built temples and persecuted, or patronized non muslim religious sects
> and their leaders, depending on what was convenient to do, and when. I
> do not make judgements about an entire people based on what a king has
> done or not done.
>
> However, since you have mentioned kings, let me add my two pice worth of
> historical information (though I promise to try and not do more)
>
> The saga of destruction of temples and places of worship in Kashmir
> begins, not with the advent of Muslim power, but with the ravages
> wrought by the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism in the Kashmir Valley. It
> was Sankarvarman (883-901), destroyed the Buddhist complex at
> Parihaspura and used the debris to construct his new capital. Since you
> seem to have a reasonably well stocked library of history on Kashmir,
> please refer to a far more balanced account of the History of Kashmir -
> "Kashmir: A Glimpse in Time" by a respected Kashmiri Pandit scholar,
> Rajiv Sapru, in the 23rd (1998-1999) annual number of 'Vitasta', a
> fairly scohlarly publication of the Kolkata Kashmir Sabha, which I have
> always enjoyed reading, and have read, regularly.
>
> The depredations of Harsha are very well documented. I am quoting a book
> by N. N. Das Gupta, "The Sruggle for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya
> Bhavan, 1957, (of course it might be suspect, since it is written by a
> Bengali Boddi/Viadya, like Gargi, me and Swapan Dasgupta the great
> friend of 'Panun Kashmir', just to set the record straight, but lets
> leave that aside for the moment)
>
> Harsha (1089-1101 A.D.), who was particularly keen on destroying temple
> images, two centuries before Muslim rule was established, had appointed
> special officers for the purpose designated as 'devotpaatana-nayaka' or
> "prefect for the destruction of icons". Dasgupta's sources for the
> narrative of Harsha's depredations include Kalhan's Rajtarangini
> [Struggle for Empire, p. 665]
>
> Later, another king Jayasimha (1128-1155 A.D.) broke down the images and
> burned the vihara of Arigon near Srinagara. There are several more
> examples of these acts of violence.
>
> Rajiv Sapru (referred to above) writes in the article that I have cited
>
> " Many theories are advanced to explain the destruction of the massive,
> megalithic Kashmiri temple structures. Sultan Sikandar (1389-1413), one
> of the Kashmiri Muslim rulers, has come in for most of the blame. Later
> historians have given the sultan the title of the Butshikan (Iconoclast)
> in the traditions of Mahmud of Ghazni, the Muslim invader who made the
> breaking of idols and the destruction of temples the mission of his
> life. But all the devastation is certainly not Sikandar's handiwork.
>
> There were Hindu kings also who revelled in the destruction of their
> predecessors' work. Some were prompted by jealousy, others by sheer fits
> of madness and still others by plain greed for the gold, silver, land,
> and property attached to the temples. Sankarvarman (883-901), for
> instance, was a narrow-minded zealot who uprooted the Buddhist complex
> at Parihaspura and, removing the vast material from there, built a whole
> new city close by at Sankarpura (modern Pattan on the road to Baramulla
> from Srinagar). Harsh (1089-1101), another Hindu king, was comparable to
> Nero in the cruel delight he took in watching marvels of workmanship go
> up in flames, or huge structures crumble down, demolished by a giant
> hammer blow. Many Brahmin priests also took advantage of the prevailing
> confusion, aiding in the vandalization of richly-endowed temples so that
> they fell into disuse and could conveniently be usurped. Sadly, all this
> was later attributed to religious bigotry alone."
>
> You are happy to quote the iconoclasm of Sikandar Shah, but not the
> exemplary religious tolerance of his son and successor Zain-al-Abedin,
> who invited the displaced brahmins to return, resettled them, gave them
> land and royal patronage and even delighted in the celebrations of Shiv
> Ratri, which, I no doubth you do not need to know, in Kashmiri are
> called, 'Herath'. I find your selective usage of historical material in
> order to buttress an exhausted and moribund argument, like the previous
> attempt made by one of your comrades, to distort a fragment of a court
> testimony, by taking it out of its context, frankly, disgusting.
>
> Anyway,
>
>
> We know that Kashmir, and especially Srinagar, and the region around
> Srinagar was a very important site of Buddhist worship and habitiation
> from many extant records, The sites known as the Jayendra vihara and
> Raja-vihara played a very important role right up to eleventh century ,
> but the more important ones were Ratnagupta and Ratnarashmi vihars in
> 11th and 12th centuries, where large number of Mahayana scriptures were
> translated into Tibetan. But various Aacharyas of Tantrik Buddhism
> flourished in the valley of Kashmir. Also florished Kshemendra who
> depicted Buddha as avatara of Vishnu and hence his book was discarded as
> profane by Tibetian Lamas. Kashmir Buddhism also had a tremendous effect
> on both the Kashmir schools of Shaivism. [N. N. Das Gupta, "The Sruggle
> for Empire",Bombay Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1957 p.419 ff.]
>
> And Shankaracharya's journey to Srinagar has to be seen in relation to
> the wider process of the way in which Buddhist practices, viharas,
> schools and other sites were challenged by a renascent Brahminism.
> Shankaracharya's polemics against the buddhists of Kashmir is
>
> Interestingly, the entire effort to efface the distinction of the
> Buddhist world view, which the Sangh Parivar continues today, by
> insisting that Buddhists are Hindus (they are not and never have been)
> in many ways begins with our favourite eleventh century poet -
> Kshemendra. Buddha gets incorporated in the Puranic literature by being
> portrayed as the great 'deceiver', not because he preached a doctrine of
> compassion, but because he deceived the 'asuras' into discarding the
> Vedas, and thus hastened their demise.
>
> I do not hold any of you, or any Kashmiri Pandits responsible today for
> the willing endorsement that some of their ancestors must have given (or
> the part that they would have then played) in a protracted factional
> struggle between and within rival dynasties and warlords (both Hindu and
> Muslim) that led to the destruction of Buddhist shrines in Kashmir, and
> in the genocidial violence unleashed by Sankaravarman,Harsha and other
> successive kings against Buddhists in the Kashmir valley (where no
> Buddhists remain).
>
> But I do think that it is pathetic to dredge up what might or might not
> have happenned eleven hundred, or eight hundred or even five hundred or
> a hundred years ago to justify an argument about today. But, if, just in
> case I did, and if I did follow your pathetic example, then the Kashmiri
> Pandit argument about how they have always been the victim of oppression
> would be, well shattered. Not to mention, the patronage that the
> Kashmiri Pandit members of the Mughal bureaucracy  enjoyed during Mughal
> rule and even during Afghan and Sikh, or the special, royal protection
> that the Hindu religion received during the years of Dogra rule and ,
> after Kashmir was bought at a discounted rate in 1846.
>
> I know that parallel processes protected the priviledged position of
> upper cate Bengali elites in Bengal. Our so called ancestral property
> (in my paternal family), which is a class of property titles known as
> 'Devottar' in Mitakshara jurisprudence was endowed by a Muslim king to
> his Hindu physician, to build a Kali temple. Our priviledge, in Bengal,
> on the basis of which my ancestors oppressed their lower caste and
> muslim tenant farmers and bonded labourers was built on a compact with a
> Muslim aristocracy. I do not want to go into these details because I
> have nothing against Kashmiri Pandits as Kashmiri Pandits, or upper
> caste Bengalis as upper caste Bengalis, (no, I am not a self hating
> upper caste Bengali, self hatred is not the issue here) but when some of
> you offer up these exhausted narratives time and time again, all I can
> do is to sit up and take notice of the enormous fallacies that you are
> bent on pursuing.
>
> Now please, please do not let me embarass you further, I hate having to
> do it, and I do it only so that other people on this list who are not as
> well informed (they have no reason to be, and I do not hold it against
> them) or who pretend to be as well informed (like you all) about the
> history of Kashmir, and South Asia in general, and who do not, like me,
> sit up long hours into the night, wasting their time, reading old and
> dusty manuscripts, might not be misled by you.
>
> Please, please, all of you, read, pursue your arguments, as arguments,
> not by flailing about for pathetic half digested scraps of histories
> that you should be more familiar with than you actually are. And please
> get yourselves an education about how to use citations and quotations,
> about how to make an argument using historical sources, and of how to do
> textual and juridical interpretation. If this list teaches you how to do
> even a little bit of that, it might even serve your cause better,
> because then you will not be making really obvious and embarassing
> mistakes. Peope might then have reasons to treat you with some respect,
> even if they disagreed with you. Right now, you are only making yourself
> look ridiculous.
>
> And Rashneek, yes, the friend with whom I walked to the Khanqah of Shah
> Hamadan did mention that it was a Pandit shrine devoted to Kali
> (Bhairavi I think, but my memory might be playing tricks about the exact
> form of Kali we discussed). He did mention that he had seen people
> perform rituals by the riverside. He did mention that he regretted and
> felt deeply upset by the fact that he could no longer see that happen.
> We stayed quiet for a while after that, and I thought a little, just in
> passing, about the Kali temple that stood in the grounds of my father's
> ancestral house, (because a jagrata Kali was/is the family deity of my
> patrilineal family) which too was abandoned, but for reasons quite
> different from what any of you would imagine, but I do not want to go
> into that now.
>
> regards, and watch your step, all of you, as I always watch mine, and
> try and learn how to spell my name.
>
> Shuddha
>
>
>
>
>
> > Shudda,
> >
> > In case you wish to really delve into history of Kashmir to have a
> > meaningful discussion please read Baharaistan-i-Shahi.I am a giving a
> Muslim
> > historian because  most here will say Hindu historians would lie.
> > Here are some excerpts
> > *The source of the texts is Bahiristan-i-Shahi.I am quoting without even
> > changing a line.
> > "Sultan Shihabu'd-Din addressed himself to such works as would help him
> get
> > peace in the world hereafter. He arranged a tomb and a burial place for
> > himself to be used after his death. Towards the fag end of his life, he
> was
> > infused with a zeal for demolishing idol-houses and destroying the
> temples
> > and idols of the infidels. He destroyed the massive temple at Beejeh
> Belareh
> > [31] (Bijbehara). He had designs to destroy all the temples and put an
> end
> > to the entire community of the infidels.[32] "
> > "Again it needs to be recorded that for some of the time which the holy
> Amir
> > spent in Kashmir he lived in a sarai at 'Alau'd-Din Pora. At the site
> where
> > his khanqah was built, there existed a small temple which was demolished
> and
> > converted into an estrade on which he offered namaz (prayer) five times
> a
> > day and recited portions of the Qur'an morning and evening. Sultan
> > Qutbu'd-Din occasionally *
> > *Some more Muslim Historians for you...*
> > *After the death of Sultan-Qutubdin,he was succeeded by his son Sultan
> > Sikandar who needs no introduction. "Sikandar But-shikan or Sikandar the
> > Iconoclast" burnt or destroyed as many temples as he could lay his hands
> on.
> > He killed thousands of Hindus and converted lacs. One significant detail
> is
> > that three kharwars (one kharwar is approximately equal to eighty
> kilograms)
> > of Hindu ceremonial thread (zunnar) were burnt by Sultan Sikandar.
> > (Tarikh-i-Hasan Khuihami, Pir Ghulam Hasan, Vol II, RPD,* Srinagar
> > 1954.).His period was a period of utter darkness and barbarianism in the
> > history of Kashmir.This is what historians (mostly muslims)have to say
> about
> > him**.**"He [Sikandar] prohibited all types of frugal games. Nobody
> dared
> > commit acts which were prohibited by the
> > **Sharia*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia>
> > *.. The Sultãn was constantly busy in annihilating the infidels and
> > destroyed most of the temples..." (Haidar Malik Chãdurãh:
> Tãrîkh-i-Kashmîr;
> > edited and translated into English by Razia Bano, Delhi, 1991, p.
> 55.)"[he]
> > strived to destroy the idols and temples of the infidels. He got
> demolished
> > the famous temple of **Mahãdeva* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadeva>*
> at
> > Bahrãre. The temple was dug out from its foundations and the hole (that
> > remained) reached the water level. Another temple at Jagdar was also
> > demolished… Rãjã Alamãdat had got a big temple constructed at
> > **Sinpur*< http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sinpur&action=edit>
> > *. (...) the temple was destroyed [by Sikandar]." (Khwãjah Nizãmu'd- Dîn
> > Ahmad bin Muhammad Muqîm al-Harbî: Tabqãt-i-Akbarî translated by B. De,
> > Calcutta, 1973)"Sikander burnt all books the same wise as fire burns
> hay".
> > "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that
> lotus
> > flowers face with the onset of frosty winter." (Srivara, Zaina
> > Rajtarangini).Many mosques were constructed from the debris of broken
> hindu
> > temples. Iskandarpora was laid out on the debris of the destroyed
> temples of
> > Hindus. In the neighbourhood of the royal palace in Iskandarpora, the
> Sultan
> > destroyed the temple of Maha Shri which had been built by Pravarasena
> and
> > another one built by Tarapida. The material from these was used for
> > constructing a Jami' mosque in the middle of the city*
> > **
> > If this isnt enough,please ask for more.
> > I suggest you read entire history of Kashmir before you try being an
> expert
> > on it.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rashneek
> >
> >
> > On 9/3/07, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Dear Ms Sengupta ,
> >>
> >>I would quickly go thorogh few questions you have put forward to me.
> >>
> >>1. You have mentioned that few appeals of terrorists in Kashmir for
> return
> >>of Kashmiri Pandits to valley may be sincere . However have you ever
> read
> >>anywhere that the same people have ever tried to get the killers of
> >>Kashmiri
> >>pandits to Justice ? What makes you believe that we should believe them
> >>,when even now threats are being issued to kashmiri pandits , and the so
> >>called moderate just express their helplessness.
> >>
> >>2. The mosque where you went to with your friend in Khankah  was a kali
> >>temple. Till 1989 we just used to pray by applying vermillion on the
> wall
> >>of
> >>that temple. Did your friend tell you about that  ?
> >>
> >>3. You too are one who believe that jagmohan made kashmiri pandits leave
> >>the
> >>valley. What more can an example of a perfect brainwash. Would any sane
> >>person , unless feeling insecure, leave his home at the call of someone
> ?
> >>Would someone leave his home, orchards to live in tent without a penny
> in
> >>his pocket just because jagmohan asked him to do so.
> >>
> >>You have no knowledge . You are explaining the reason of my exodus to me
> .
> >>You have no idea of how I felt when i was alone in my house with my
> mother
> >>and sister with thousands of gun carrying mobs running carzily
> >>outside.Youhave no idea when my two neigbours includinga 88 year old
> >>person were killed
> >>and labelled mukhbirs.
> >>
> >>Thank you for first explaining me how to translate Kashmiri rightly and
> >>now
> >>a bigger thanks for explaining to me why I had to leave Kashmir and had
> to
> >>live in exile.
> >>
> >>God Bless
> >>
> >>Pawan Durani
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On 9/2/07, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Dear all, dear Pawan,
> >>>
> >>>I totally agree with Pawan Durani that an accounting for the genocidial
> >>>violence unleashed by the regimes that were in power in the Soviet
> >>>Union, and the one that continues to be in power in the Peoples
> Republic
> >>>of China is necessary.I say this,  as someone who was raised within the
> >>>Communist tradition, and as someone who has no hesitation in saying
> that
> >>>I continue to hope for a stateless, classless global society, free of
> >>>nations, corporate profit and war, if not in my lifetime, then at least
> >>>in the lifetime of generations to come. Everyone has their own vision
> of
> >>>a better world, I have mine, parts of which or all of which I might
> >>>share with the visions of others, as they might share theirs with mine,
> >>>and I do not see any reason to be apologetic for that vision. I say
> this
> >>>because I have no shame, or regret in calling myself a Communist. I am
> >>>not now, nor ever have been a member of any communist party, but just
> as
> >>>I hope it is possible for people to consider themselves Hindu even if
> >>>they were not member of the RSS, or Muslims even if they did not
> >>>necessarily subscribe to a specific jamaat, or Christians who followed
> >>>the example of Christ rather than the doctrine of an organized church,
> I
> >>>do believe that it is possible to consider oneself a non-party
> >>
> >>Communist.
> >>
> >>>Communists, more than anyone else, must deal with, account for and take
> >>>responsibility for the fact that their convictions were perverted and
> >>>held hostage by ruling formations, cliques and classes that led to some
> >>>of the most vicious and ruthless dictatorships known to human history.
> >>>They must account for letting this happen, even when they were
> >>>themselves the first and most frequent victims of these regimes. Their
> >>>being victims of Stalin's purges does not excuse them from the
> >>>responsibility of creating a figure like Stalin in the first place. The
>
> >>>totalitarian nightmare of Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Caesescu's
> Rumania
> >>>or Hoxha's Albania are not a legacy that anyone can be proud of. Nor
> can
> >>>we be proud of the intrigue and petty authoritarianisms that mark the
> >>>Trotskyite and Maoist or Marxist Leninist formations that continue to
> >>>function, after a fashion, in our midst.
> >>>
> >>>I say this knowing that the majority of those who perished in Stalin's
> >>>gulag, were, Communists. When Leon Trotsky ordered soldiers to fire on
> >>>the striking sailors of the Kronstadt, he was a communist sanctioning
> >>>the murder of communist militants. The millions who died in Siberia,
> who
> >>>went to forced labour camps, were Communists. They went to the firing
> >>>squad singing the Internationale - a song whose jaunty tune still has
> >>>the capacity to lift  my spirits on a glum day. And I love to whistle
> it
> >>>when it rains.Still, It breaks my heart to hear it sung, because it is
> a
> >>>song sung by executioners and by those that thyt executed, but hey, who
> >>>said the world was a simple place where it all works out in the end?
> >>>Everything is messy, and each of our histories is part of the mess.
> >>>
> >>>All this happenned, in my opinion, because, the nationalist logic of
> >>>'Socialism in One Country'  and/or a tragic romance with the
> >>>intoxication of newly won state power perverted the deeply democratic
> >>>and internationalist elan of the global communist movement beyond
> >>>imagination. From a movement that actively desired the withering away
> of
> >>>the state, it became a political formation that presided over the
> >>>withering away of society, of everything but the state. This is an
> >>>object lesson for all revolutionaries and insurgents. Yesterday's
> >>>fighters for freedom often become tomorrows prison wardens. I know of
> no
> >>>exceptions.
> >>>
> >>>The logic of Capital is not necessarily a logic of private property.
> >>>Advanced forms of Capitalism actually abolish private property,
> >>>concentrating socially produced wealth in giant coroporate abstractions
> >>>far more efficiently than 'nationalization' by so called socialist
> >>>regimes can. What happenned in the Soviet Union, China and the
> erstwhile
> >>>so called 'Peoples Democracies' was not 'socialism, or communism' but a
> >>>monstrous amalgam of Capital and the State in the name of saving, yes,
> >>>the Nation State. That is why there is no contradiction between the
> >>>hyper capitalism that prevails in China today and the twisted dialectic
> >>>of Mao Zedong thought. That is why Stalinists adore big dams, nuclear
> >>>power and nuclear weapons to the extent that they do.
> >>>
> >>>Our own so called Communist Parties are no exception. I would like to
> >>>illustrate this with an example that has current relevance, which has
> >>>been gestured to even in the link that Pawan Durani has forwarded in
> one
> >>>of his recent postings, and which might be of interest to some - I am
> >>>talking of the current impasse over what is being called the 'nuclear
> >>>deal' with the United States of America. Having deceived most people in
>
> >>>this country, that they were against the Nuclear Weapons programme,
> they
> >>>(the mainstream parliamentary left, led by the two so called Communist
> >>>Parties) have now come around to a public posture of trying to create a
>
> >>>protective 'fence' around our own weaponization programme, which is
> what
> >>>they mean as 'strategic autonomy' under the banner of national
> >>>sovereignty. In doing this, they have come full circle, and are now
> >>>saying more or less exactly what the BJP has been saying all along.
> They
> >>>are also in the same ideological boat as the ruling juntas in
> Islamabad,
> >>>Tehran and Tel Aviv, which are also committed, overtly and sometimes
> >>>covertly, to their own 'patriotic' nuclear deterrents.
> >>>
> >>>I am not an advocate of the 1-2-3 Treaty that will lock India locked
> >>>into a military embrace with the United States. I am totally opposed to
>
> >>>it, and I think that it will put us all in harm's way. But I think that
> >>>the only way to oppose it is to insist on de-nuclearization - by
> arguing
> >>>for the scrapping of the nuclear weapons fantasies of our ruling elites
>
> >>>and by creating a sharp and coherent opposition to the idea of India
> >>>becoming some sort of super power in Asia. This process (of achieving
> >>>super power status) will being untold misery on the people who live in
> >>>this country and in Asia at large. The greedy fantasy of energy
> security
> >>>which makes our ruling elites salivate at the thought of sending Indian
> >>>troops to guard 'indian' interests and assets in central asia is
> >>>something that sends shivers down my spines. For the sake of all our
> >>>futures, I hope such dreams are never realized. They will lead us
> >>>straight towards war, and disaster.
> >>>
> >>>But our mainstream parliamentary left is as involved in living out this
> >>>fantasy as anyone else is. It's argument for 'strategic autonomy' means
> >>>that it wants to keep India's arsenal of nuclear weapons, wants to
> >>>strike a patriotic pose, and is willing at a pinch, basically to hand
> >>>this country back to the right reaction of the BJP - all in the name of
> >>>proving how nationalist they are. The red in their flags is turning
> >>>slowly to saffron.
> >>>
> >>>The choice that we could be making as a society  is not one
> of  choosing
> >>>to strike alliances between an Imperialist United States or a fascist
> >>>Iran, or an expansionist China. The only choice worth making is that of
> >>>jettisoning nuclear weapons, demilitarizing South Asia, firstly by
> >>>finding a solution to Kashmir that is acceptable to the majority of the
>
> >>>people who live there, by making peace with our neighbours, and by
> >>>ending the military occupations of the north eastern territories. It is
> >>>a sign of the poverty of political imaginations in this country today
> >>>that these choices are precisely those that the so called 'left'
> parties
> >>>are bent on jettisoning but clinging to their new found doctrine of
> >>>'strategic autonomy', which puts them straight in bed, whether they
> like
> >>>it or not, with the Bharatiya Janata Party.
> >>>
> >>>It was nationalism that perverted the communist ideal. That made the
> >>>Soviet Union travel a distance from being the product of a revolution
> >>>that had abolished the standing army to becoming a power that could
> only
> >>>sustain itself with brute military force, and then not at all.
> >>>
> >>>From a conviction that held only one thing sacred, and that being that
> >>>the world should have no walls, it became an ideology that built walls
> >>>and the barbed wire fences of the gulag. From a form of political
> >>>culture that privileged the widest liberty, with Rosa Luxemburg stating
>
> >>>that freedom of expression is not freedom unless it is for those who
> are
> >>>against us - communist parties travelled a long distance - to presiding
> >>>over the routine suffocation of all dissent with a banal brutality.
> >>>
> >>>And for all this, I hold the virus of nationalism, to a large measure
> >>>responsible. That is why though I have no quarrel with people who use
> >>>the label socialist, communist, or even anarchist to describe my
> >>>positions, I will never agree to be called a nationalist. When you put
> >>>nationalism and socialism together, you get something called National
> >>>Socialism. And effectively, there is little for me to choose between
> the
> >>>National Socialism that prevailed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and the
> >>>Socialist Nationalism that prevailed in USSR, for the better part of
> the
> >>>twentieth century, and that continues to prevail in China today. The
> >>>differences that do exist are not of kind, but of degree.
> >>>
> >>>I am willing to accept the necessity to conduct a personal atonement
> for
> >>>the millions who perished under regimes that called themselves
> >>>communist.  I personally think that it is the responsibility of anyone
> >>>who calls himself or herself a communist today to undertake to mourn
> for
> >>>all those who were (or are being) killed or displaced or imprisoned or
> >>>imprisoned in the name of communism, to repent and ask for forgiveness.
> >>>
> >>>Because I am a communist,  I hold nothing higher than humanity -
> >>>ordinary simple humanity - just the worth of human beings as human
> >>>beings, in all their unpredictable, unscriptable variety. Neither
> >>>nations, nor parties, nor god, nor gods, nor any ideal or abstraction
> of
> >>>progress can be more important than the health and well being of a
> >>>child, or the freedom to do with our time, our leisure and our labour
> >>>power as we see fit. I do not want martyrs or heroes, I want to live my
> >>>life with ordinary people, doing ordinary things. I want no one I love
> >>>or care for to have to die for the sake of a flag or any abstract idea,
> >>>because flags and abstractions  cannot feed, clothe or shelter human
> >>>beings with dignity or liberty for all.
> >>>
> >>>This does not mean that we abandon politics, it just means that we work
> >>>very hard to fashion a politics that does not demand the sacrificial
> >>>offering of our humanity on a daily, hourly basis. I am willing to
> >>>engage with anyone, no matter what they believe in, who is sincerely
> >>>committed to this enterprise. But it does require us all to take a long
> >>>and hard look at ourselves. I want to know which political ideology,
> >>>which nation, which religious faith has not, in the history of humanity
> >>>demanded and received its due in blood. Everyone can claim the status
> of
> >>>victims for themselves, and everyone has the blood of others on their
> >>>hands. And the arithmetic of who has killed more, and who has killed
> >>>less is far less interesting than the more difficult and demanding task
> >>>of accounting for the actions of the executioners on your own side.
> >>>
> >>>What I want to know is, will those who call themselves nationalists
> >>>undertake to mourn for all those who have been killed in order that
> >>>their beloved and sacred nations remain the fictions that they are on
> >>>the map of the world?
> >>>
> >>>For me, the communist idea remains what it was for the Communards of
> the
> >>>Paris Commune, for the partisans of the Petersburgh Soviet and for the
> >>>Workers and Peasant Councils of Republican Spain - that of a world, and
> >>>a social order where people, not corporations or governments, control
> >>>the relations they enter into in order to produce the things that make
> >>>life possible and worth living. A world without armies, states, police
> >>>forces, intelligence agencies, weapons traders, or factories that
> >>>pollute the earth or poison peoples bodies. A world without alienated
> >>>and alienating labour. Where each of us labour according to our
> >>>capacities and receive the fruits of  our labour according to our
> >>>neends. Where we begin to move from the shackles of necessity to the
> >>>emancipation of desire.
> >>>
> >>>For this reason, I am willing most of all, to look hard and long at the
> >>>legacies that I have inherited, and subject them to the sharpest
> >>>possible critique if they are found poor and wanting in relation to the
> >>>dream of a just and free world. If this list is a place where we can
> all
> >>>begin this process of reflection on the limitations and areas of
> >>>darkness within all that we profess and have inherited -  whether as
> >>>liberals, islamists, hindutva-vadis, secularists, nationalists, cynics
> >>>and sceptics then it will be worth the provocation that Pawan Durani
> has
> >>>put before us. I thought I would rise to the bait, and risk making a
> >>>fool of myself, if necessary. Of course, if we all think that none of
> us
> >>>have anything to reflect on or atone for, I, and I hope Pawan, will be
> >>>sorely disappointed.
> >>>
> >>>Your turn Pawan. Tell me what you think is wrong with the fact that the
> >>>Indian state killed so many thousands of people in Kashmir. Do you
> think
> >>>there is anything wrong? Or would you like to pass over these
> >>>thousands of deaths in silence.
> >>>
> >>>I have heard more than the odd person with separatist sentiments in
> >>>Kashmir make the gesture of apology for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits,
> >>>and for the death of Kashmiri pandits, for the destruction of their
> >>>property. Sometimes the sadness and regret in that apology is a ritual,
>
> >>>but often it is not fake. I walked with a friend in Srinagar one night
> >>>in the vicinity of the Khanqah and mosque of Shah Hamadan, and he
> >>>pointed out to me a place close by the bank of the river where a shrine
>
> >>>once stood, and then we both stood in front of it in silence for a
> >>>while. And he tried to find words to talk about the strange days of
> >>>1989. It wasn't easy for him, and I did not make it easy for him, but
> >>>the conversation did not damage our friendship.
> >>>
> >>>He told me what I knew already, about the way Jagmohan, then then
> >>>governor of Jammu and Kashmir, engineered  the exodus, about the
> rumours
> >>>and panic that was spread through the grapevines carefully cultivated
> by
> >>>the state, and about the painful slogans in the streets. All this I
> >>>know, we all know. But he also said, "It was wrong of the state to make
>
> >>>them go, It was wrong on the part of those that created the climate of
> >>>fear (and he meant the separatists, or those within their ranks who had
> >>>undoubtedly attacked some high profile Kasmiri Pandit individualsr, and
>
> >>>it was wrong on their part for them to go and to leave us at the mercy
> >>>of the state, but it was also wrong on our part that we did so little
> to
> >>>make them stay".
> >>>
> >>>I want you to think carefully and tell me if you can respect this
> >>>feeling of loss? I agree that you have every reason for your pain, but
> >>>what if I said, abandoning those who were your neighbours also gave
> them
> >>>no opportunity to heal or at least address your pain. Have you ever
> >>>considered what it is like to be yourself, when someone who is not you,
> >>>who is the other, is no longer there to speak to, to be with, to be
> >>>different from? What is the strange loss we feel when the person we
> >>>think is our most intense antagonist leaves us alone to be with
> >>>ourselves? For many Kashmiri's who remain where they have always lived,
>
> >>>who did not have places to go to where the Indian army would not hound
> >>>them, perhaps It comes from a strange and difficult to explain sense of
> >>>loss at seeing the abandonment of their neighbours home. Perhaps It
> >>>comes from the unease of knowing that no 'azadi' will ever be complete
> >>>if it is won at the cost of the exodus of a minority. Sometimes it
> comes
> >>>from the memory of a Pandit school master in a village school who
> >>>suddenly disappeared on that night that you all mention.
> >>>
> >>>I always find it interesting to come to that point when someone says
> >>>that  his or her people have done something wrong. Often it means
> >>>risking being called a traitor. I think in our times, traitors are
> >>>saints. Imperfect, flawed, awkward saints, but the only kind that I can
> >>>light a candle to. So all heretics are my friends. They make it
> possible
> >>>for people in the camps of their enemies undertake necessary acts of
> >>>counter-treason. When two traitors meet from opposite sides, there is
> >>>the possibility of an encounter very different from the kind that
> >>>normally gets scripted by the security forces of our beleagured
> >>>republic. There is the possibility of an unpredictable conversation.
> >>>This list, over the past few days, has been the setting for some
> >>>unpredictable conversations, I do not wish them to end.
> >>>
> >>>I am a traitor, and many communists will call me one for saying the
> >>>things that I have said in this post in response to your provocation.
> >>>But then I think that sometimes, treason is the only honorable thing.
> >>>
> >>>However,  I have yet to come across a Indian nationalist ideologue who
> >>>believes Kashmir to be an indivisible part of India express any regret
> >>>over the thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who were killed by Indian
> >>>soldiers or who disappeared in the nineties in Kashmir,  or about the
> >>>thousands who were tortured or imprisoned, because all this happenned
> to
> >>>keep Kashmir's within the map of India. For them, this violence was
> >>>justified and necessary. Those deaths were necessary.
> >>>
> >>>You may meet many communists who will say that the killing of millions
> >>>in the Soviet Union or in China was justified and necessary. I am not
> >>>one of them, and there are many others like me. But I am still looking
> >>>for the Indian nationalist who is willing to say sorry for Kashmir, for
>
> >>>Manipur, for Nagaland.
> >>>
> >>>Perhaps you could be the one who makes a beginning. Try it out in your
> >>>head and tell me what it feels like. Reject it if you want, but at
> least
> >>>try it out. And tell me what it feels like for a moment to be a little
> >>>larger than your own corner of the pain that engulfs us all. Please do
> >>>share your feeling with this list.
> >>>
> >>>regards,
> >>>
> >>>Shuddha
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Pawan Durani wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>With the passing of communism into history as an ideological
> >>
> >>alternative
> >>
> >>>to
> >>>
> >>>>democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
> >>>>_________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>_________________________________________
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> >>
> >>_________________________________________
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> >>Critiques & Collaborations
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> >>subscribe in the subject header.
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> >
> >
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>
>


-- 
Rashneek Kher
http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com