[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

Mon Sep 17 23:12:58 IST 2007

Dear Pawan,
Your name means wind, actually the god of wind. I hope you are familiar with
all the meanings and metaphors of your name?

Now my name too has a few connotations although no direct meaning except
that Gargi is the daughter of Garg  but it has some connotations. While the
connotations are varied and can perhaps be seen as endless, the one meaning
that cannot be associated with Gargi is pure, or Shuddha.  (You often call
him Shaddha which means a death ritual  meant as process of purification so
perhaps accepted.)

Now what you can¹t do is call Shuddha Gargi or reply to my post but address
it to Shuddha.

And yet you have done it.

Are you like Rahul squeamish about ladies¹ and would rather talk to men?
But even if I accept that, why Shuddha, why not the n number of men on this
list? Why not even Vishal whose name is in the subject line?

Are you so obsessed and obsessive about Shuddha that you see him everywhere?
That is called Diwanapan in Urdu/ Hindustani meaning the madness caused by
love (and you know wiser people than me have said that love and hate are but
two sides of the same coin.)  The diwana sees the image of the beloved
everywhere, in everything, and through his love for the beloved he can touch
the divine love. The next step for the diwana is even more interesting, and
Heer did it with her beloved Ranjha  Ranjha Ranjha kehti hu mein ape Ranjha
hoi (I called/ repeated the name Ranjha so many times that I became Ranjha.)
So be careful Pawan dear, lest you turn into Shuddha.

And if you want to talk¹ to me, please have the courtesy to address me.

Gargi Sen

On 9/17/07 10:37 AM, "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Shuddhaa , S of SAP.
>  
> 1. And the World remained Silent has a censor certificate .
>  
> 2. Please correct your statement ....it is not Indian occupied Kashmir , But
> Indian Kashmir . Few words here and there makes a difference.
>  
> 3. Walking into Nepal does not have anything to do with Indias economic power.
> Had it been the case Burma was a much poorer neighboring country.
>  
> 4. ARKP is a party to Kashmir issue , being the aborgonies of the land where
> our history goes back to 5000 years +.
>  
> For , Shudhaaa , a person who jumps at every instenve whenever yasin maliks
> name is taken , ARKP is a problem......
>  
> Is that what is much similar to Stockholm Syndrome ?
>  
> Pawan Durani
> 
>  
> On 9/17/07, Gargi Sen <sen.gargi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Rahul, the R of ARKP,
>> I hope your post below is able to rest Khemendra's mind (I am getting so
>> very fond of that man) and explain exactly why I clubbed you into the the
>> mob. It is simply because you share an inability to imagine.
>> 
>> Just listen carefully to your own arguments
>> 
>>    This is my
>>    response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why
>>    the nation may resort to censorship in some cases-to
>>    be specific,why it would censor something that
>>    promotes self determination in Kashmir.
>> 
>> 
>> Just for your information - the nation/ state/ nation state/ whatever did
>> not censor Jashn-e-azadi. A group of  disgruntled Kashmiri Pundits did. Now
>> since when did this bunch of KPs become the 'nation' whatever that may be?
>> And how come YOU choose the side of one KP against the other? After all the
>> director himself is a KP.
>> 
>> For your information a nation, even this great one, does not 'censor'. This
>> one makes it mandatory  a pre-censorship of films only. The only art form
>> requiring pre-censoring is a film (exception Gujarat that requires the
>> scripts of plays being performed to be censored.) You can write a book,
>> create poetry, paint and publicly display, but you can not do so with film.
>> Many of us believe that the government¹s policies are discriminatory if not
>> downright unethical. No one has the right to censor  and I am not talking
>> about regulations. Now on personal, political and ethical grounds many
>> independent filmmakers will not apply for censorship for their film. And
>> that is a stated, collectivised political position. And this community still
>> does it, knowing jolly well the consequences.
>> Also, getting a censor certificate does not mean that the film will not run
>> into controversy, be stopped, or banned. Perzania is the latest in this
>> list. Of course there are many stopped by the lunatic fringe. However, what
>> is often missed by filmmakers themselves also is how the controlled market¹
>> being peddled by the money bags as free market¹ also effectively blocks the
>> film¹s run.
>> And try selling this argument of yours to Ashok Pundit and the ARKP who
>> quite successfully screen another film on KPs migration from valley. A tear
>> jerker called And the World Remained Silent (or something similar.) No state
>> or no nation has stepped in to stop that one.
>> This discussion can go on forever. But only when you have your arguments
>> properly constructed.
>> AND incidentally, I am a woman. AND I hope you can get over your
>> squeamishness about ladies¹ to engage with me
>> 
>> 
>>    Now,many people think that A united and independent
>>    Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution to
>>    this 60 year old dispute.
>> 
>> Right, and I am one of those. AND a woman to boot.
>> 
>> 
>>    This is a very  appreciable sentiment, but I dont
>>    think that is gonna happen.
>> 
>> Why not Rahul? History provides information to the contrary. You and I would
>> not be citizens of a so-called free nation if such things were not gonna¹
>> happen. And remember my gender.
>> 
>>    Nations dont work on such canonical moral
>>    principles.For getting anywhere near to the solution
>>    of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip with
>>    realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit from
>>    an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir itself.As
>>    for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN
>>    reiterates a policy of non interference and
>>    bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb the
>>    other party to come to a solution. Nor can any country
>>    bleed the other to a point of submission by terrorism
>>    etc.
>> 
>> I agree. But what about the Kashmiri people? The Kashmiris themselves? Don¹t
>> they have ANY stake in these geo-political stakes? Should they care? Should
>> the people of India have cared when in 1947 it was inconvenient for the
>> INDIAN govt to give up their jewel in the crown?¹ Or even in more recent
>> history should it have mattered to the people of erstwhile East Pakistan how
>> inconvenient it was for the government based in west Pakistan that had
>> over-ruled a democratically chosen leader who happened to be from East
>> Pakistan, imprisoned him and initiated the marshal law in East Pakistan, how
>> terribly, terribly inconvenient it was for West Pakistan to face an united
>> forced, united by language (of a kind at least)? Should they have cared? Or
>> should the people of Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh or even Uttaranchal (although I
>> really prefer Uttarakhand) have cared how their insisting on a state of
>> their own have made their mother states to face huge revenue loss?
>> 
>>    Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India
>>    a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the
>>    North East,
>>    b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and India
>>    would not be comfortable with that going in a
>>    different country.
>>    c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not to
>>    try to usurp any further territory.
>>    d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a
>>    disputed territory and if any party is perceived to go
>>    soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult time
>>    to get elected again.
>>    So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint
>>    gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it
>>    may have to do or it may have to tolerate.
>> 
>> Do you have any support to bolster these arguments? Especially the last?
>> Many of us even on this list believe Kashmir is occupied by the Indian
>> military. And incidentally I am a woman.
>> 
>>    I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there is
>>    the one water treaty,for them to have reservations in
>>    wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what
>>    interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those
>>    Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether
>>    there is an internal political spin to it.
>> 
>> Now that¹s interesting. The water treaty that India has with Pakistan. Have
>> you ever wondered why despite 3 wars (and these were wars where armies and
>> the airforce bombarded each other and NOT the new definition of war wherein
>> you pulverise a nation to dust, slap an embargo on it for 11 years, take out
>> all its military strength, cry weapons-of-mass-destruction¹ and begin
>> bombing again AGAINST the opinion of the entire world this time. India
>> Pakistan at least fought some kind of a skirmish closer in meaning to the
>> term war¹ ), have you wondered why despite such military provocations and
>> aggression, the water treaty is left sacro-sanct? AND why does you great
>> government NOT have even the courtesy of language while writing water
>> treaties with Bangladesh? And you can forget looking for anything like a
>> treaty with Nepal. After all the economic power of this powerful state
>> ensures that you can walk into Nepal even without a visa.
>> 
>>    Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region
>>    with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign
>>    state,it will also have problems with its non uniform
>>    demographics. There would always be some sort of
>>    strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of an
>>    option would only guarantee the continuation of some
>>    kind of trouble in the region.
>> 
>> Landlocked. Scant resources. Non-uniform demography. Now that¹s interesting
>> Rahul. So all nations described by these definitions should immediately
>> begin to secede to their neighbour? Right? Open your school geography book
>> Rahul and look at the map of the world. And please make a list of all the
>> nations that must immediately cease to be as they are landlocked, with scant
>> resources and with non-uniform demography. And remember you are now arguing
>> with a woman.
>> 
>>    So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost
>>    impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would
>>    not allow it to happen,without consideration for
>>    Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests.
>>    Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in
>>    the solution of the problem.Most of all the Kashmiris.
>>    Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense
>>    expenditure). A solution is a win win option for
>>    everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and
>>    pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their
>>    idealism;because its a matter of life and death for
>>    many people.
>> 
>> Right, now we talk pragmatism. After dishing out useless, non-substantiated
>> arguments now you tell me to be pragmatic. But Rahul dear, the word Romance
>> is equivocally opposed to the word Pragmatic. And worlds get changed by
>> romantics, not pragmatics. Don¹t believe me? Read you school books of
>> history.
>> 
>>    And,above all , all concerned parties should drop this
>>    holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and
>>    come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to
>>    everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their
>>    stated positions.
>> 
>> Who are the concerned parties? The ARKP?  The film Jashn-e-azadi? Who
>> exactly Rahul?
>> 
>>    By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I
>>    know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been a
>>    Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine
>>    theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion
>>    would have been the same.
>>    regards
>>    Rahul
>> 
>> And that truly is the very unfortunate part of your mind. Despite serious
>> shifts in geography, philosophy and the state of mind, your mind is fixated,
>> ossified, focused, uni-directional. You don¹t know but you must send a LONG
>> post about position that you can neither defend nor justify.
>> 
>> That¹s why Rahul dear you¹re the R in my list of ARKP. Get?
>> 
>> Now remember I have been reminding you of my gender through out? That is
>> just so that you can answer these powerful words from a sender-of-post Sveta
>> who I know only through her post
>> 
>> ³ In a way lists are fairly revelatory of implicit acceptances... & are
>> private mail abuses to women list subscribers not a clear sign of how
>> recklessly these implicits can be performed without any check or restraint,
>> and very assured that there will be no consequence to it³
>> 
>> I do want to believe that that is not so. That there will be consequences.
>> On no other space on this world perhaps but for certain on this virtual
>> space. So Rahul dear do me a favour. Look up my namesake Gargi spelled
>> G-A-R-G-I (or read one of the Sarai Readers) about who she was and how she
>> argued. She was finally shut up by the sage Yagyavalka, cornered by her
>> arguments, because of her gender.
>> 
>> Now today, with perhaps one hundreth of the intellectual and informational
>> base of the original Gargi (BUT with access to toilet cleaners, chinese
>> lawyers and the wikipedia) I challenge you Rahul to argue, with reason and
>> logic without squeamishness of gender and at least construct something of
>> value. Not just opinions and hot air. And if you can¹t argue with me, a
>> woman, allow me to remind you of a North-Indian/ western South Asian, deeply
>> patriarchal insult: wear bangles and sit at home. (I hate this saying. I am
>> simply reminding you of it.)
>> 
>> Gargi
>> 
>> 
>> 
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