[Reader-list] Gun Salutes for August 15

[Aditya Raj Kaul]

Inder - And, here speaks yet another Kashmiri Politician...lol

Whatever be the case, how so much you may try to deviate..but the main issue
revolving Amarnath needs to be handles well. The first step needs to be
allocating the said land for the period of two months to the Shri Amarnath
Shrine Board to make pre-fabricated temporary structures for the pilgrims.
And, there should be no interference in the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board from
the valley based bigots. N.N. Vohra - we have had enough of him. He needs to
be packed off back to New Delhi. Maybe, he joins Guv Jagmohan and Guv Sinha
and Guv Saxena at IIC.

All party delegation having representation from PDP, NC, Congress, CPI etc
etc. needs to visit valley again to let them know there was no economic
blockade and merely a myth created by a few vested interests.

The "full of freedom" separatists need to be handled tough, infact very
tough. Its because of UPA's pampering that we are at this unfortunate stage
today.

Inder bhai, why do you want to go to Naya Kashmir or for that matter Purana
Kashmir. You may well live in Panun Kashmir. We'll have no problems. I'll
personally welcome you into it.

The terrorists who initiated gun culture in the valley need to be convicted.
Their free pass of becoming a leader in the valley needs to be cancelled.
Enough of their Secular & Gandhian drama. And, those of Geelani's Shabir's,
Sajad's, etc. who have been continuously instigating communal passion in
innocent Kashmiri Muslims in the valley; need to be chanrged. They have lost
many lives just because of brainwashing.

And, one correction. I didn't find you confused Inder; but your name is what
I meant. Now, if you take it that ways; its all upto you. Its not about you
being a artist, a nude actor or anything.....its about your nature of
appeasing Muslims and lick their feet while you play with words in mails...

Hope you understand this time around....

Orzuv....

Aditya Raj Kaul




On 8/17/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> SAY YES TO UTOPIA IN KASHMIR
> .
>
> I believe, following points emerged after going through an interesting
> exchange between Sonia and Shuddha, which can become part of further
> debate on Kashmir issue:
>
> 1. Kashmir is not a bilateral issue between Pakistan and India. People
> of Jammu and Kashmir have to be a part of any understanding on it.
> Representatives of Kashmir need to work out a clear policy. The
> present Hurriyat conference is a divided house. National Conference,
> Congress and PDP  etc are/were always opportunistic in dealing the
> issue at the core, and therefore, there should be a clear scheme in
> sight on how to recognize a genuine representative body in Kashmir.
>
> 2. A Naya Free Kashmir ( new Kashmir ) may be a place where anybody
> can live freely, but should not be allowed to acquire land for greed.
> Government land should be allotted to landless families.  Kashmiri
> families who want to return be included in allotment schemes.
>
> 3. Demilitarization of Kashmir should begin at the earliest. Those
> who demand it should also learn to live without a security cover.
> Representative bodies of Kashmir should guide people on how to deal
> with rogue militants.
>
> 4. To confront the law is reasonable when Law of the Occupied is in
> vogue. But, laws which are acceptable to people should be charted out.
> For example, Gandhi suggested people not to used British goods, and
> simultaneously suggested how to spun khadi. Millions of people
> followed him and something similar can happen in Kashmir, if there is
> a will to achieve something unique.
>
> 5. Supporters of a free Tibet are everywhere because of their inherent
> non-violent  ways of dealing with the Chinese occupation. It  was a
> British citizen who hoisted Tibet slogan/flag in Beijing Olympics.
> Something similar can happen if Kashmiris become creative in protests.
> The recent peaceful protest in the valley  is a positive beginning.
> Gun culture should be abandoned completely, which has become an excuse
> for Indian security forces to stay there in large numbers.
>
> 6. I see nothing wrong in sex work (provided it does not involve
> coercion or minors), I too agree with Shuddha, but the new
> representatives for a free Kashmir need to include this in their
> agenda.  Having said this, I believe the level of violence in Kashmir
> against women is quite less in comparison to violence in India or in
> Pakistan. But Kashmiri MALES  need to provide spaces to women while
> electing new representatives for a free Kashmir.  They need to have a
> scientific outlook while dealing with women's issues.
>
> 7. Environment is the new wave which can dismantle solid words like
> Freedom, Plebiscite, Rights, etc unless new ways are not discovered to
> understand new politics.  Environmentally speaking , Kashmiris and all
> the people of the world are a tightly woven fabric, and we don't know
> how to cut it and where to stitch it for our day to day use. We are
> truly clueless with regard to energy requirements once the oil
> reserves begin to disappear.  Human beings are growing at the expense
> of other species on this planet. We have to find an answer to all the
> environmental crises. That is too urgent.
>
> 8. A  Naya free Kashmir must create a space for so called confused
> peoples, ( as Aditya Raj kaul found me )  because I believe,
> musicians, poets artists and performers are a confused lot in the
> first place, and therefore, must be seen as integral part of society.
> Too many journalists, advocates and the present lot of politicians in
> the new representative body will spoil the dream of a free Kashmir.
>
> 9.  A new free Kashmir should not interfere in the religious matters
> at all. People should be advised/motivated not to donate money at
> shrines, or if they do so they money should be go social and cultural
> activists.
>
> 10. Recently I did a short opera on river in Kashmir, Te Vyeth Rooz
> Pakkan ( The river jehlum moves on ) in U.K.  . This was arranged by
> Luton mela committee in Luton, which has a 25% population from Azad
> kashmir. Mr. Zulfikar Ahmed is the chairman of the committee, who
> invited us for a dinner next to a place which was occupied by
> Amman-Ula-khan for quite some time. Secretrary of  J&K cultural
> academy Zaffar Iqbal khan Minhas was also there, but as it happens
> now, it happened there also; we talked on politics and nothing on the
> art and culture.
>
> Mr. Zulfikar regretted that the present Luton's  A.Kashmir population
> is  divided into Chaudhries, Rajas and Maliks, although they donate
> some pounds to sufi musicians from Pakistan  as and when they sing a
> ghazal or so in their honour, but they are quite worried about the
> fate of their children who are neither Pakistanis, nor kashmiris nor
> Brits. The worst is that British public and police is a little
> uncomfortable with large muslim population there. Zulfikar is a
> worried person, who has  clueless about future of these kashmiri
> children. Nobody speaks kashmiri language there, let alone going back
> to Azad Kashmir.
>
> At the moment, I think it is enough for a new free Kashmir, but
> suggestion and alteration are welcome. I know, it will be hazy in the
> end, but …
>
> With love and regards
> Inder salim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 5:34 PM, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey Shuddha,
> >
> > Thanks for the mails & sorry I haven¹t had the time to even read them
> > properly let alone frame a response as I am leaving Delhi tomorrow night
> for
> > a whole month & have a load of stuff to do.
> >
> > I promise I will try & do so in a few days.  And yes, it is entirely
> > possible to have disagreements without being disagreeable.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > sj
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/08 5:11 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Sonia,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Having spelt out what I agree with you on, in my previous post, let me,
> in all
> >> fairness, come to what I disagree with you on. Actually, disagreement,
> is not
> >> necessarily what I have in mind, what I mean is where I see things
> differently
> >> from you. I hope that in the course of reading this exchange,our young
> friend
> >> Aditya Raj Kaul will recognize that it is possible for people to see
> things
> >> differently, and even to disagree, without having to search for new ways
> of
> >> insulting each other.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You said,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I read with some surprise your taking issue with my use of the phrase,
> >>>
> >>> Œbaying for blood¹ and your accompanying list of slogans used during
> the
> >>>
> >>> protests.  It is incomplete and I could add a few more but I really
> don¹t
> >>>
> >>> want to vitiate and already horrible situation.  I¹m sure you remember
> 1989
> >>>
> >>> and the slogan ŒJai Sri Ram.¹  Advani had used a similar argument when
> >>>
> >>> challenged.  He said something like, what is communal or provocative
> about
> >>>
> >>> taking God¹s name?  What, indeed, except when there is a thousand
> strong mob
> >>>
> >>> screaming God¹s name and marching towards Muslim localities as they did
> in
> >>>
> >>> Œ92 and Œ93.  I would describe that as baying for blood.
> >>
> >>
> >> The difference between Advani's justification of the Jai Shri Ram slogan
> in
> >> 1989 and what I am trying to point in relation to the events of the past
> few
> >> days in the Kashmir valley lies in the fact that the protestors on the
> roads
> >> and highways of Kashmir were not 'screaming God's name and marching
> towards
> >> (any particular community's) localities.' Had the march been to Jammu,
> or
> >> Amarnath, not Muzaffarabad, and had they been seeking a deliberate
> >> confrontation with the crowds rallying to the SASS slogans, or the
> pilgrims to
> >> Amarnath, then you would have been absolutely right. As it happens this
> did
> >> not occur. And as I have pointed out before, a record number of pilgrims
> >> travelled safely to Amarnath this year, in the yatra which has just
> >> concluded.In this case, the protestors in Kashmir were marching not with
> >> aggressive intent towards another community, but towards the LOC,
> demanding
> >> that the borders be opened. I think there is a world of a difference in
> these
> >> two trajectories. I think this does suggest that we could recognize that
> the
> >> articulation of anger in Kashmir today is more mature than it was even
> in '89.
> >> This is all the more evident when we realize that every single person in
> any
> >> role of leadership of consequence in the Kashmir valley has called for
> >> peaceful protest, and for the maintenance of communal harmony.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I can¹t help hearing the ringing similarity between Œinfrastructure of
> >>>
> >>> oppression¹ and the chilling phrase we used to hear pre-1992, Œdisputed
> >>>
> >>> structure,¹ Œsymbol of Hindu oppression.¹  Do you remember Naipaul¹s
> defence
> >>>
> >>> of Hindutva and why the tearing down of the Babri Masjid was but
> natural for
> >>>
> >>> a people who had been oppressed by Muslim rulers for 500 years?  The
> point
> >>>
> >>> I¹m trying to make is that once you give a group a carte blanche to do
> as
> >>>
> >>> they please, to destroy what they consider symbols of oppression, you
> have
> >>>
> >>> very little ground to stand on when others whom you may not agree with
> >>>
> >>> politically do the same.  That is why laws exist and ought to be
> followed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Again, there is a difference, I think you will agree, between an attack
> on a
> >> 16th century mosque, and the disarming of a CRPF bunker. The mosque, can
> for
> >> the sake of an argument,(though I do not buy that argument) be seen by
> those
> >> who wanted to raze it to the ground as a 'sign' of perceived
> communitarian
> >> oppression. The bunker, is much more than a 'sign', it is the actual
> locus of
> >> oppression. It is a place that bullets are fired from. Again, had there
> been
> >> attacks on temples, or even on the homes left behind by the Pandits, or
> the
> >> schools and colleges that still bear names and signs of Pandit or Dogra
> >> presence, your argument would have had credence. From the reports that
> we have
> >> received, this did not happen. Signs and symbols were not touched, what
> was
> >> sought to be dismantled, was the 'infrastructure' of oppression itself,
> and
> >> this was done without a single policeman or CRPF person losing their
> life. As
> >> we all know, there are enough loose weapons and explosives in the
> valley. And
> >> it is not as if CRPF personnel or policemen have not been made targets
> before.
> >> They are sitting targets. Again, I would point out to you, two policemen
> have
> >> lost their lives in Jammu, no policeman, CRPF personnel, or jawan has
> lost
> >> their lives in the past few days in Kashmir. I hope that this continues
> to be
> >> the case.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> During the 'quit India' movement in 1942, there was a significant
> disruption
> >> caused to the 'infrastructure' of the colonial state. Police pickets,
> radio
> >> towers and wireless transmission systems, for instance were disabled,
> and care
> >> was taken to see that lives were not lost. The people who participated
> in
> >> these attacks did not see what they were doing as 'violent', indeed,
> some, if
> >> not the majority of them, were passionate advocates of 'non-violence'.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For years, the insurgency in Kashmir has been attacked on the grounds
> that it
> >> was only the handwork of a handful of murderous 'terrorists' with no
> popular
> >> base. Now that the 'people' are out on the streets, not just in
> thousands, but
> >> in tens of thousands, and they are not wielding AK-47s, or assasinating
> >> anyone, they are being criticized as being present in threateningly
> large
> >> numbers. This seems disingenous to me, you can't malign a movement when
> the
> >> people are not on the streets on the grounds that it is not popular, and
> then,
> >> when the people turn up, criticize them for being so many.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Further, I do not agree that laws ought to be followed because they
> exist. We
> >> must, in each case, ask, which law, to what purpose, and wielded by
> whom,
> >> against whom, for whom. In this case, there is a contradiction between
> the law
> >> that guarantees the right to free assembly, and the law that prohibits
> >> assembly. It could be argued that the people of Kashmir are following
> the
> >> spirit of the first law in order to violate the letter of the second
> law. And,
> >> we all know that patently bad laws exist in Kashmir. Laws such as the
> Armed
> >> Forces Special Powers Act. I think it is ethically wrong to obey such a
> law.
> >> The question to be asking then, is not, why are the people of Kashmir
> not
> >> following the law, but, why are soldiers in the Indian armed forces
> obeying an
> >> ethically wrong law.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Re. the 100 acres of land & its distribution: this fact came to light
> only
> >>>
> >>> about 10 days ago when the land records were pulled out and examined
> and was
> >>>
> >>> not the spark that lit the agitation in Kashmir, sadly.  What did was
> the
> >>>
> >>> canard that the SASB acquiring 100 acres was the first step towards
> Hindus
> >>>
> >>> settling in the valley by a government that was intent on demographic
> >>>
> >>> change. Communal? Maybe, maybe not. Xenophobic,yes. Justified, not
> >>>
> >>> justified: I don¹t care. It¹s just plain silly and tragic to have such
> a
> >>>
> >>> brouhaha with people being killed about something that¹s a bare-faced
> lie!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree, the question of demographic change with regard to the transfer
> of the
> >> Amarnath land is a red herring, and a bare faced lie, and smacks of
> >> xenophobia. 100 acres do not, and cannot lead to a demographic change.
> And
> >> everyone must counsel people in Kashmir to abandon this train of
> thought.
> >>  When Kashmiri leaders, for whatever reason, talk about 'demographic'
> threats,
> >> they sound exactly as foolish and xenophobic as the chauvinist Indian,
> >> especialy Hindu Right politicians do when they fulminate against
> 'demographic
> >> change' that will occur because of Bangladeshi immigration. The protest
> in
> >> Kashmir has enough justification, in terms of an anger against the
> alienation
> >> of land and against the violence of the state, not to have to get bogged
> down
> >> in the chimera of confronting demographic change.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I thank you again for this exchange, as I believe that it has led us all
> in
> >> the direction of expressing our thoughts without getting caught in the
> trap of
> >> abuse, and recrimination, which some people on the list seem
> unfortunately to
> >> have become habituated to.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> regards,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Shuddha
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
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>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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