[Reader-list] If Pakistan bans JuD, we should demand banning of saffron outfits

[Aditya Raj Kaul]

Dearest Javed miyan,

It is great to see further clarification from your end, yet again here on
this forum. Wonger how long this cycle will contine. Anyways. I still have a
thing or two to mention.

Thanks, for not attempting to reform me. Personally, I think I don't need to
reform, but to get more education, be more aware and empathetic. Coming back
to Terrorism which is Islamic. It isn't me alone who has coined this term
'Islamic Terrorism'; it is the media, the politicians, the common people,
the lawyers, the victims, and everyone echoing in chorus. It is something we
all have now experienced directly or indirectly. I'm glad you have made
yourself clear, that you don't defend those inhuman and mentally sick Jihadi
elements.

I find the following particular line of yours quite disturbing as everyone
else in this form would have, "As an Indian with a Muslim name, I refuse to
accept if Pakistanis say they want to avenge the massacre of the Indian
Muslims (I think we can deal with our struggles our won way in this country
- we don't want Pak sympathy)."

While I appreciate your courage to dismiss Pak completely, but at the same
time, In this line, What do you exactly want to prove? What massacre are you
talking about? Who will take revenge against whom ? Isn't this getting too
much divided among ourselves? I feel Indian Muslims are happy and prosperous
as anybody else is in this secular and diverse country. Its immature and
equally dangerous to generalise things in this order. It would only create
disturbance at a point when two nuclear powers are at logger heads and we
have chance of a war.

I don't think and rubbish your claim that banning of saffron outfits is
connected with the 'war on terror' and overall current JuD banning process
and that of establishing and bring to book the criminals and mindless people
behind gruesome Mumbai attacks. I reiterate, what I said before. We need to
be united against Terror at a time when country is under continuous Jihadi
threat. You have been actually deviating this too much further now, Mr.
Javed, maybe because of your unfortunate lack of knowledge.

Why do you want to get JuD, LeT like banned Islamic Terrorist outfits on the
same page along RSS, VHP etc. (who are not in picture at this moment). ???
This suggests your intention to defend Islamic terror mindset at least or
throw some other irrelevant argument ahead so that the original issue is
mixed in this jumble. I don't think it goes on too well here, Sir.

Certainly, less amount of hatred will result in creating a path for peace.
This has been missing and is the need of the hour. But, how long will be
suffer terror Attucks from across the border killing hundreds of innocent
Indians daily in Kashmir, Delhi, Jaipur, Bangalore, Lucknow and elsewhere.
We cannot tolerate it any further. The training camps across the border need
to be eliminated to begin with. This is a short term solution with a longer
impact. At a time when Pakistan, is reluctant to cooperate with India
against terrorism, why should we show a positive approach and deal softly
always ?

Islamic Fundamentalists and Terrorists have been a pain everywhere be it
India, Bangaladesh, France, USA, Britain, Spain etc etc. We can't just keep
suffering this horror. World has to unite against these ill-minded and devil
Terrorists.

How will Kashmiri Pandits be rehabilitated when the killers live there
freely? When the separatists are moving with peace and freedom ? Its a
puzzle. Easier said then done.

Thanks


On 12/13/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Aditya
> I never claimed I am on the right path (whatever that is), but you
> did. So that's fine. I have no intention of reforming you either. Let
> me clarify that I am in no way trying to defend what you call the
> "Islamic terrorism", and I am as much pained by the death of innocent
> people in Mumbai as you are. As an Indian with a Muslim name, I refuse
> to accept if Pakistanis say they want to avenge the massacre of the
> Indian Muslims (I think we can deal with our struggles our won way in
> this country - we don't want Pak sympathy).  But why I brought the
> subject of banning the saffron outfits (in response to the JuD news)
> because I think it is connected with the larger "war on terror".
>
> Once again, I don't want to start the debate of "who began it all" but
> the point is that the terrorist supposedly trained in Pakistan says
> they were shown videos of Muslim massacre in Gujarat and hate-speeches
> of Modi to incite the hatred against India and Hindus. I know that
> this is a standard practice on both sides of the border. RSS shakhas
> and Bajrang Dal camps also show disturbing images of the "deeds done
> by Muslims" to sow the hatred in their cadre. It is a reciprocal game,
> a vicious circle that is going on in South Asia for many decades,
> resulting in this terrible situation. If we want to keep it unchanged,
> then fine, we should expect more terror attacks (God forbid). But, if
> we are serious about eradicating terror in the region, tighter
> security and intelligence will certainly play a big role, but a bigger
> difference can be made if we reduce the reasons for hatred in every
> walk of life. That is why it is important to root out the different
> institutions of hatred on both sides of the border. That is the point
> I am trying to make. A mere jingoism and patriotism will not bring a
> long-term solution. I hope you understand. I am sure that the
> reduction of hate-propaganda between the 2 countries and 2 communities
> could probably even help the Kashmiri Pandits to rehabilitate (which I
> would very much like).
>
> Javed
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 7:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Javed,
> >
> > Everyone thinks that he/she is on the right path. You and me are no
> > different. Hope you agree to this. My concern of mentioning it was only
> to
> > tell you that two different case studies cannot be clubbed together at
> such
> > an urgent and important juncture where our county is facing Terror. I
> never
> > said everyone else is mistaken, only you to a little degree, Sir. I won't
> > reform everyone, never did I mention it neither do I intend to. I'll only
> > place my view and a just argument wherever necessary.
> >
> > We can debate, discuss and come to your 'Saffron' groups at a later stage
> > when our country is done with handling terrorism from across the border.
> > Isn't that logic ?
> >
> > In my last e-mail, I had just quoted an example on terrorism in Kashmir,
> > which has originated from the same Pakistan region which has also been
> > feeding terrorists responsible for Mumbai Attacks. We should have no
> doubt
> > in our minds that Mumbai carnage is the manifestation of the continued
> > onslaught by the pan Islamists against secular India.
> >
> > Now, more than me, I suppose you are deviating this topic, for very
> obvious
> > reasons. I won't comment much on the second part of your e-mail. You have
> > problems with Kashmiri Hindus on this forum now, just because they speak
> > openly against 'Islamic Terrorism' and give that very important 'other
> > viewpoint' which has been missing in forums such as these and obviously
> > elsewhere or maybe is deliberately kept out of the page.
> >
> > You have taken it very much further Javed. In contrary I see a ray in you
> > which is defending 'Islamic Terror' outfits such as JuD and LeT etc. Why
> > bring in so called Saffron Outfits' here in the discussion out of
> nowhere?
> > And, this is just always, maybe not by you, but someone else here.
> >
> > Obviously, there can be no similarity between right and the left, BJP and
> > the CPI, and here SFI, AISA and 'Saffron Outfits'. I didn't mention those
> > ultra radical communist agencies because they have some connection. But,
> > even they are responsible for many incidents in the recent past which
> have
> > been unfortunate and against humanity. You are wise enough to guess and
> > understand.
> >
> > Lastly, My initial response to your 'reactionary' e-mail was to guide you
> to
> > the root cause of terrorism in the region. We all know it started with
> cross
> > border terrorism in Kashmir and JKLF was one strong killer group which
> > slaughtered hundreds openly, and now those terrorists are like state
> guests.
> > Now, that attacks and bombs go off like 'Diwali Pattaks' anywhere and
> > everywhere here in India, Government is 'thinking' of taking some strong
> > action or maybe tough laws.
> >
> > I hope I've made in this mail myself understood to the core. I'm ready to
> > debate further, but lets mve forward. No point sticking to the same old
> > lines again and again.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > .
> >
> > On 12/13/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Aditya
> >> So, you are the only one on the right path, and everyone else is at
> >> mistake, and you won't sit quiet until you reform everyone. Good to
> >> know.
> >> By the way, you ask me not to bring un-related issues on the same
> >> page. But since I have been seeing your mails on Sarai list, I see
> >> that whatever is topic, you (and your friend KPs) always stretch it to
> >> the problems of Kashmiri pundits. If we are talking of communalism in
> >> UP or Gujarat, you shout: why isn't no one talking of the plight of
> >> KPs. When we are talking of farmers committing suicides, you ask, why
> >> is not on concerned about KPs, and so on. So, it is you who bring
> >> unrelated issues together. In this case itself, when I mentioned
> >> banning saffron extremists, you brought in SFI and AISA, although I
> >> haven't understood what is the connection. I gave you that list of
> >> dates (of origin of those organizations) only as a reaction to your
> >> mail about "initators".
> >>
> >> J
> >>
> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>
> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Dear Javed,
> >> >
> >> > Your initial e-mail with a comment attached to a news item was nothing
> >> but
> >> > of course a reaction to it. Now, I don't know why you bring in our
> >> internal
> >> > problems here in India (if at all they are ) when we are discussing
> about
> >> > Terrorism originating from Pakistan. One cannot take both these things
> in
> >> > the same wave-length and things need not be mentioned on same page.
> >> >
> >> > Surely, its futile discussing who the 'initiator' is. But, you cannot
> >> just
> >> > rubbish it without an argument.
> >> >
> >> > Also, if not 'initiators' of Terrorism; but surely the modern origin
> of
> >> > Terrorism is from Pakistan (and PoK) and needs to be fully eliminated,
> >> not
> >> > alone through sanctions, banning and strong tough laws but as well
> >> physical
> >> > exercise if needed. Its high time. We've suffered enough from them.
> >> Pakistan
> >> > cannot get away with it merely through PR exercise of 'House
> Arresting'
> >> few
> >> > master Terrorists only to be released later and treated as state
> guests.
> >> >
> >> > Well, it isn't me who says Islam is responsible for this bloody
> tirade.
> >> It
> >> > is LeT, JuD and other such 'Islamic Fanatic' groups which claim to do
> >> this
> >> > as messengers of Allah. Am I wrong ? I'm as well a victim of this
> crazy
> >> > blind Jihad.
> >> >
> >> > Lets not deviate when our country is facing such a serious terrorist
> >> threat.
> >> > Lets be united again this menace of Terrorism.
> >> >
> >> > I'm no one to give you befitting reply; but surely would always
> correct
> >> your
> >> > mistakes, and take you on the right path, till I can and I know. Yes,
> we
> >> > need to be positive, neutral and fight unitedly. But this doesn't mean
> we
> >> > yet again tolerate and forget this 'Jihad' business launched by some
> >> > crackpots.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear Aditya and Srirang Jha
> >> >> My original message was not in reaction to the Pakistanis efforts to
> >> >> ban JuD. I think the troublemakers any where should be banned
> >> >> (whichever religion they belong to). I didn't start the "initiators"
> >> >> debate. It is futile discussing who is the "first" initiator. You
> will
> >> >> go on and on and will never be able to decide who threw the first
> >> >> stone. People usually claim that it is Islam which created all the
> >> >> trouble in the world - as if the world was a happy, peaceful and rosy
> >> >> place before Islam. I refuse to accept that any religion should be
> >> >> used to claim as the real cause of all trouble.
> >> >>
> >> >> So, let us try to stop this "befitting reply" culture among
> ourselves,
> >> >> and try to be very practical. Let us look at the history of each
> group
> >> >> that we are discussing, and formulate a criteria for banning them. I
> >> >> am not trying to defend any group or individual - but we have to be
> >> >> honest and just in this case.
> >> >>
> >> >> Javed
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >>  <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Dear Srirang,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks. Just to correct you, what we see today is Íslamic
> Terrorism'
> >> >> which
> >> >> > is ultra extremist and what we see as a reaction to this
> provocation
> >> in
> >> >> > India can't be clubbed with them. Even though they are marginally
> >> >> extremist.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Its important to eliminate the origin of global Islamic Terrorism
> in
> >> >> > Pakistan. Its high time now atleast.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks
> >> >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:33 PM, srirang jha <
> jha.srirang at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Javed's suggestion is imbued with his reactionary mindset that
> tries
> >> to
> >> >> >> justify action against Hindu extremist organizations only because
> >> action
> >> >> is
> >> >> >> being taken against the Muslim extremist outfit in Pakistan. I
> wish
> >> >> Javed
> >> >> >> could think a little more objective. Ban on all the extremist
> >> >> organizations
> >> >> >> should be imposed irrespective of a precedent or any precondition.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Anyway, response of Aditya Raj Kaul to Javed's 'reaction' is
> >> befitting.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Srirang Jha
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>   On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <
> >> >> >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> Yes, why not ? But, To begin with:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> 1) Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
> >> >> >>> 2) Hurriyat Conference
> >> >> >>> 3) Tehreek-e-Hurriyat
> >> >> >>> 4) Student Federation of India (SFI)
> >> >> >>> 5) All India Students Association (AISA)
> >> >> >>> 6) CPI
> >> >> >>>         ..................there are many more.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Ban the initiators first, and then those who react to constant
> >> >> >>> provocation.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Anybody initiating this movement ?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I'm all ears..
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Thanks
> >> >> >>> Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On 12/11/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > There are reports that Pakistan govt. is arresting many clerics
> >> and
> >> >> >>> > banning extremist organizations (responsible for Mumbai
> terror). I
> >> >> >>> > think it is high time we demand a ban on our own home-grown
> terror
> >> >> >>> > outfits like Abhinav Bharat, VHP, MNS, BD, RSS and so on. A
> >> movement
> >> >> >>> > should start for this from this very platform. What do you say?
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Pakistan to ban Jamaat-ud-Dawa: Gilani
> >> >> >>> > 11 Dec 2008, 1912 hrs IST, AGENCIES
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will fulfil its obligations under a UN
> >> Security
> >> >> >>> > Council statement targeting four members of Lashkar-e-Taiba and
> >> >> >>> > charity
> >> >> >>> > Jamaat-ud-Dawa linked to the banned Islamist group, the
> government
> >> >> >>> > said on Thursday. ( Watch )
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > The statement, which gave no further details, came after the UN
> >> >> >>> > Security Council sanctions committee targeted four members of
> the
> >> >> >>> > group blamed for the Mumbai attacks, and a charity widely
> viewed
> >> as
> >> >> >>> > its political arm, for an assets freeze and other sanctions.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > "Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani has said that Pakistan
> has
> >> >> >>> > taken note of the designation of certain individuals and
> entities
> >> by
> >> >> >>> > the UN under 1267 resolution of the UN Security Council and
> would
> >> >> >>> > fulfil its international obligations," a government statement
> >> said.
> >> >> >>> > _________________________________________
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> >> >> >>> _________________________________________
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > _________________________________________
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> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
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> >> >>
> >> > _________________________________________
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> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > --
> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > _________________________________________
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>



-- 

-- 
Aditya Raj Kaul