[Reader-list] Fwd: If Pakistan bans JuD, we should demand banning of saffron outfits

[Kshmendra Kaul]

Dear Javed
 
Whoever this idiot Vidya is, such a reaction is not surprising.
 
I hope you will now understand why I was questioning your proposing of the Zero-Sum Gameplan of "If Pakistan bans JuD, we should demand banning of saffron outfits". 
 
We in India must must Ban / Neutralise the operations of whoever we must for the sake of India, irrespective of what Pakistan does or does not do.
 
Kshmendra
 

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: If Pakistan bans JuD, we should demand banning of saffron outfits
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 8:16 PM

This mail from some Vidya is very enlightening.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Vidya <joshvidya at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] If Pakistan bans JuD,we should demand
banning of saffron outfits
To: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>


Javed. You stink of communal mindset. You thought that when these
jihadi groups are being banned why not these bastard who fight for
hindu cause be banned. If you think of the  problem from Hindu-Musllim
communal angle you may be right. But from secular and sensible angle
doesn't show any link between the two. There are some groups which are
fighting on Indian territory for more space on Indian territory. But
These Hindu outfits never sent groups to your beloved Pakistan to kill
your family members (Muslims). But your beloved family members came to
India and they keep coming to India to kill Indians, for them Indians
means Hindus. If you live in India or your family members are here,
they are all Hindus. If you are a true Muslaman you should be in
Pakistan, you may not be accepted with open hands as Mujahirs were
not. But suffer a bit for the cause of Islam.

So there you are. Either you tell Pakistan to merge with India and
then let the fight between these groups go on. Or ban all of these
groups, then this terrorism spread by the groups sympathized by you
will not be equal to international terrorism. It will be the
responsibility of this country to control all the elements. Right now
it is international terrorism in which, these groups with whom you
sympathize, are indulging in. India needs to ban many groups, There
are some Muslim communal groups too which were missing from your
suggested list of groups that should be banned. So you are communal
and no better than these groups you want to ban. You should be banned
as well.
But I do sympathize with your frustration that these kafirs spread all
over the world, including in Pakistan, are hampering the path of
Jihad, your cherrished pan-islamic world is being turned in to a
distant dream. We qafirs will go to hell where Allah will screw us
badly. And then the groups you sympathize with will all rejoyce in his
lap. Till then, long live secularism.
Let me say again, this is not  a hindu-muslim issue. It is a
geopolitical issue. India never told Pakistan to ban the groups which
restrict themselves to Pakistan in fomenting hatred against Shia
Muslims. India never told Pakistan to ban groups which are fighting
with in your sacred land (pak sthan) India never told Pakistan to ban
groups which foment hatred against minorities with in their territory,
it is the your Pakistan government that needs to do something for it.
But when they come here to India, and kill indiscriminately then the
problem arises. Why not Javed, you and other people who think like
you, go to the capital of whatever country you are living in, demand
with your government to lift sanctions from Islami jihadi groups
because India has not banned the Hindu groups, they can never ban all
of these groups even if they so badly want that, some of the groups
are political parties which our judiciary will protect. And even if
shiv sena is banned, BJP will never be, so only option should be to
start an armed uprising against your government, establish another
Lashkar-e-Javed group. Good luck. I hope you will be able to watch the
spectacle when Allah will screw me. Being a woman, it is my double
fault, I will be screwed multiple times. You see, that is why I don't
want to die, to keep away from being screwed away as much as possible.
 There is no doubt in my mind that many others also want to avoid
being screwed up for as long as possible. You can understand, I don't
have time to perform namaz 5 times. I like bollywood music too. I want
women to get educated in this allahless land. So I want these groups
be banned. Sorry Javed, I am a qafir, I cannot convert and many are
suffering my fate.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Javed"
<javedmasoo at gmail.com>
To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] If Pakistan bans JuD,we should demand
banning of saffron outfits


> Dear Aditya
> I never claimed I am on the right path (whatever that is), but you
> did. So that's fine. I have no intention of reforming you either. Let
> me clarify that I am in no way trying to defend what you call the
> "Islamic terrorism", and I am as much pained by the death of
innocent
> people in Mumbai as you are. As an Indian with a Muslim name, I refuse
> to accept if Pakistanis say they want to avenge the massacre of the
> Indian Muslims (I think we can deal with our struggles our won way in
> this country - we don't want Pak sympathy).  But why I brought the
> subject of banning the saffron outfits (in response to the JuD news)
> because I think it is connected with the larger "war on terror".
>
> Once again, I don't want to start the debate of "who began it
all" but
> the point is that the terrorist supposedly trained in Pakistan says
> they were shown videos of Muslim massacre in Gujarat and hate-speeches
> of Modi to incite the hatred against India and Hindus. I know that
> this is a standard practice on both sides of the border. RSS shakhas
> and Bajrang Dal camps also show disturbing images of the "deeds done
> by Muslims" to sow the hatred in their cadre. It is a reciprocal
game,
> a vicious circle that is going on in South Asia for many decades,
> resulting in this terrible situation. If we want to keep it unchanged,
> then fine, we should expect more terror attacks (God forbid). But, if
> we are serious about eradicating terror in the region, tighter
> security and intelligence will certainly play a big role, but a bigger
> difference can be made if we reduce the reasons for hatred in every
> walk of life. That is why it is important to root out the different
> institutions of hatred on both sides of the border. That is the point
> I am trying to make. A mere jingoism and patriotism will not bring a
> long-term solution. I hope you understand. I am sure that the
> reduction of hate-propaganda between the 2 countries and 2 communities
> could probably even help the Kashmiri Pandits to rehabilitate (which I
> would very much like).
>
> Javed
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 7:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Javed,
>>
>> Everyone thinks that he/she is on the right path. You and me are no
>> different. Hope you agree to this. My concern of mentioning it was
only to
>> tell you that two different case studies cannot be clubbed together at
such
>> an urgent and important juncture where our county is facing Terror. I
never
>> said everyone else is mistaken, only you to a little degree, Sir. I
won't
>> reform everyone, never did I mention it neither do I intend to.
I'll only
>> place my view and a just argument wherever necessary.
>>
>> We can debate, discuss and come to your 'Saffron' groups at a
later stage
>> when our country is done with handling terrorism from across the
border.
>> Isn't that logic ?
>>
>> In my last e-mail, I had just quoted an example on terrorism in
Kashmir,
>> which has originated from the same Pakistan region which has also been
>> feeding terrorists responsible for Mumbai Attacks. We should have no
doubt
>> in our minds that Mumbai carnage is the manifestation of the continued
>> onslaught by the pan Islamists against secular India.
>>
>> Now, more than me, I suppose you are deviating this topic, for very
obvious
>> reasons. I won't comment much on the second part of your e-mail.
You have
>> problems with Kashmiri Hindus on this forum now, just because they
speak
>> openly against 'Islamic Terrorism' and give that very
important 'other
>> viewpoint' which has been missing in forums such as these and
obviously
>> elsewhere or maybe is deliberately kept out of the page.
>>
>> You have taken it very much further Javed. In contrary I see a ray in
you
>> which is defending 'Islamic Terror' outfits such as JuD and
LeT etc. Why
>> bring in so called Saffron Outfits' here in the discussion out of
nowhere?
>> And, this is just always, maybe not by you, but someone else here.
>>
>> Obviously, there can be no similarity between right and the left, BJP
and
>> the CPI, and here SFI, AISA and 'Saffron Outfits'. I
didn't mention those
>> ultra radical communist agencies because they have some connection.
But,
>> even they are responsible for many incidents in the recent past which
have
>> been unfortunate and against humanity. You are wise enough to guess
and
>> understand.
>>
>> Lastly, My initial response to your 'reactionary' e-mail was
to guide you to
>> the root cause of terrorism in the region. We all know it started with
cross
>> border terrorism in Kashmir and JKLF was one strong killer group which
>> slaughtered hundreds openly, and now those terrorists are like state
guests.
>> Now, that attacks and bombs go off like 'Diwali Pattaks'
anywhere and
>> everywhere here in India, Government is 'thinking' of taking
some strong
>> action or maybe tough laws.
>>
>> I hope I've made in this mail myself understood to the core.
I'm ready to
>> debate further, but lets mve forward. No point sticking to the same
old
>> lines again and again.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> .
>>
>> On 12/13/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Aditya
>>> So, you are the only one on the right path, and everyone else is
at
>>> mistake, and you won't sit quiet until you reform everyone.
Good to
>>> know.
>>> By the way, you ask me not to bring un-related issues on the same
>>> page. But since I have been seeing your mails on Sarai list, I see
>>> that whatever is topic, you (and your friend KPs) always stretch
it to
>>> the problems of Kashmiri pundits. If we are talking of communalism
in
>>> UP or Gujarat, you shout: why isn't no one talking of the
plight of
>>> KPs. When we are talking of farmers committing suicides, you ask,
why
>>> is not on concerned about KPs, and so on. So, it is you who bring
>>> unrelated issues together. In this case itself, when I mentioned
>>> banning saffron extremists, you brought in SFI and AISA, although
I
>>> haven't understood what is the connection. I gave you that
list of
>>> dates (of origin of those organizations) only as a reaction to
your
>>> mail about "initators".
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>>
>>> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Dear Javed,
>>> >
>>> > Your initial e-mail with a comment attached to a news item
was nothing
>>> but
>>> > of course a reaction to it. Now, I don't know why you
bring in our
>>> internal
>>> > problems here in India (if at all they are ) when we are
discussing > about
>>> > Terrorism originating from Pakistan. One cannot take both
these things > in
>>> > the same wave-length and things need not be mentioned on same
page.
>>> >
>>> > Surely, its futile discussing who the 'initiator' is.
But, you cannot
>>> just
>>> > rubbish it without an argument.
>>> >
>>> > Also, if not 'initiators' of Terrorism; but surely
the modern origin > of
>>> > Terrorism is from Pakistan (and PoK) and needs to be fully
eliminated,
>>> not
>>> > alone through sanctions, banning and strong tough laws but as
well
>>> physical
>>> > exercise if needed. Its high time. We've suffered enough
from them.
>>> Pakistan
>>> > cannot get away with it merely through PR exercise of
'House > Arresting'
>>> few
>>> > master Terrorists only to be released later and treated as
state > guests.
>>> >
>>> > Well, it isn't me who says Islam is responsible for this
bloody > tirade.
>>> It
>>> > is LeT, JuD and other such 'Islamic Fanatic' groups
which claim to do
>>> this
>>> > as messengers of Allah. Am I wrong ? I'm as well a victim
of this > crazy
>>> > blind Jihad.
>>> >
>>> > Lets not deviate when our country is facing such a serious
terrorist
>>> threat.
>>> > Lets be united again this menace of Terrorism.
>>> >
>>> > I'm no one to give you befitting reply; but surely would
always > correct
>>> your
>>> > mistakes, and take you on the right path, till I can and I
know. Yes, > we
>>> > need to be positive, neutral and fight unitedly. But this
doesn't mean > we
>>> > yet again tolerate and forget this 'Jihad' business
launched by some
>>> > crackpots.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Javed
<javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Dear Aditya and Srirang Jha
>>> >> My original message was not in reaction to the Pakistanis
efforts to
>>> >> ban JuD. I think the troublemakers any where should be
banned
>>> >> (whichever religion they belong to). I didn't start
the "initiators"
>>> >> debate. It is futile discussing who is the
"first" initiator. You >> will
>>> >> go on and on and will never be able to decide who threw
the first
>>> >> stone. People usually claim that it is Islam which
created all the
>>> >> trouble in the world - as if the world was a happy,
peaceful and rosy
>>> >> place before Islam. I refuse to accept that any religion
should be
>>> >> used to claim as the real cause of all trouble.
>>> >>
>>> >> So, let us try to stop this "befitting reply"
culture among >> ourselves,
>>> >> and try to be very practical. Let us look at the history
of each >> group
>>> >> that we are discussing, and formulate a criteria for
banning them. I
>>> >> am not trying to defend any group or individual - but we
have to be
>>> >> honest and just in this case.
>>> >>
>>> >> Javed
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>> >>  <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Dear Srirang,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thanks. Just to correct you, what we see today is
Íslamic >> > Terrorism'
>>> >> which
>>> >> > is ultra extremist and what we see as a reaction to
this >> > provocation
>>> in
>>> >> > India can't be clubbed with them. Even though
they are marginally
>>> >> extremist.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Its important to eliminate the origin of global
Islamic Terrorism >> > in
>>> >> > Pakistan. Its high time now atleast.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thanks
>>> >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:33 PM, srirang jha
>> > <jha.srirang at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Javed's suggestion is imbued with his
reactionary mindset that >> >> tries
>>> to
>>> >> >> justify action against Hindu extremist
organizations only because
>>> action
>>> >> is
>>> >> >> being taken against the Muslim extremist outfit
in Pakistan. I >> >> wish
>>> >> Javed
>>> >> >> could think a little more objective. Ban on all
the extremist
>>> >> organizations
>>> >> >> should be imposed irrespective of a precedent or
any precondition.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Anyway, response of Aditya Raj Kaul to
Javed's 'reaction' is
>>> befitting.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Srirang Jha
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>   On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Aditya Raj
Kaul <
>>> >> >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> Yes, why not ? But, To begin with:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> 1) Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
>>> >> >>> 2) Hurriyat Conference
>>> >> >>> 3) Tehreek-e-Hurriyat
>>> >> >>> 4) Student Federation of India (SFI)
>>> >> >>> 5) All India Students Association (AISA)
>>> >> >>> 6) CPI
>>> >> >>>         ..................there are many
more.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Ban the initiators first, and then those who
react to constant
>>> >> >>> provocation.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Anybody initiating this movement ?
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I'm all ears..
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Thanks
>>> >> >>> Aditya Raj Kaul
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On 12/11/08, Javed
<javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > There are reports that Pakistan govt.
is arresting many clerics
>>> and
>>> >> >>> > banning extremist organizations
(responsible for Mumbai >> >>> > terror). I
>>> >> >>> > think it is high time we demand a ban
on our own home-grown >> >>> > terror
>>> >> >>> > outfits like Abhinav Bharat, VHP, MNS,
BD, RSS and so on. A
>>> movement
>>> >> >>> > should start for this from this very
platform. What do you say?
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Pakistan to ban Jamaat-ud-Dawa: Gilani
>>> >> >>> > 11 Dec 2008, 1912 hrs IST, AGENCIES
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will fulfil its
obligations under a UN
>>> Security
>>> >> >>> > Council statement targeting four
members of Lashkar-e-Taiba and
>>> >> >>> > charity
>>> >> >>> > Jamaat-ud-Dawa linked to the banned
Islamist group, the >> >>> > government
>>> >> >>> > said on Thursday. ( Watch )
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > The statement, which gave no further
details, came after the UN
>>> >> >>> > Security Council sanctions committee
targeted four members of >> >>> > the
>>> >> >>> > group blamed for the Mumbai attacks,
and a charity widely >> >>> > viewed
>>> as
>>> >> >>> > its political arm, for an assets freeze
and other sanctions.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > "Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza
Gilani has said that Pakistan >> >>> > has
>>> >> >>> > taken note of the designation of
certain individuals and >> >>> > entities
>>> by
>>> >> >>> > the UN under 1267 resolution of the UN
Security Council and >> >>> > would
>>> >> >>> > fulfil its international
obligations," a government statement
>>> said.
>>> >> >>> >
_________________________________________
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>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> Aditya Raj Kaul
>> _________________________________________
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