[Reader-list] Life in a parallel universe - By Irfan Husain in DAWN

[Javed]

Kshmendra
Let me re-phrase my sentence for your convinience: instead of saying
Indian society, what I meant was: "The media doesn't reflect the deep
bias some among Hindu society has been nurturing against Muslims".
Does that make it sound better.

And when I posted the news about terrorists having purchased liquor
before attacking in Mumbai, I was asking what sort of Muslim
terrorists were they if they enjoyed alcohol. I maybe wrong, but one
can suppose that such kind of terrorist training (especially in places
like Pakistan/Afghanistan) must involve strict adherence to Islamic
laws, which means not touching alcohol. If they are promised paradise
in return of such deeds (which is why agree to become suicide-squads),
there is no way they should touch alcohol. So, I was only wondering
what sort of Muslims were they?

Javed

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 9:01 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Javed
>
> You are requested that you should not misquote. I did not call you a dimwit.
>
> I said you cannot be a dimwit and that is why I saw deviousness in your
> seeking to propagate a divide by talking about Muslims as being separate
> from "Indian Society".
>
> If want to go the sympathy seeking route of "Poor Me, he suggested I am a
> dimwit", that is your choice.
>
> I would rather you realise that you should not have mentioned Muslims as
> being separate from "Indian Society". Unless you were deliberately being
> devious and want to instigate Indian Muslims. You have not commented on
> that.
>
> You have also not commented on your Zero-Sum proposal of "If JUD then
> Saffronites too".
>
> I apologise if you did not suggest / propagate any conspiracy theory about
> the Mumbai Terror Attacks. I vaguely remember a posting from you questioning
> if the "terrorists" were Muslims and something about their stocking alcohol.
> Maybe I misinterpreted. Apologies.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> PS: Incidentally, I quite liked the "Tasveerghar" work. Also I
> thoroughly enjoyed reading your recently posted comments on Iqbal.
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Life in a parallel universe - By Irfan Husain in
> DAWN
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 8:23 PM
>
> Dear Kshmendra
> Yes I am a dimwit (if that helps your ego), but I am not a
> troublemaker. I didn't suggest any conspiracy theory about Mumbai. If
> I have to repeat it again and again that "I am against terrorism and I
> cry for Mumbai victims as much as anyone" then I think anyone who
> doesn't read my mail properly must be equally dimwit.
>
> J
>
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Dear Javed
>>
>> Regarding the question at the end of your post;Yes you are wrong and you
> are
>> a troublemaker.
>>
>> In my eyes, your formulations and propagations make you suspect of devious
>> intentions meant to instigate Indian Muslims. You are their enemy and not
>> their friend. That is evidenced by your postings on this List.
>>
>> You are one of those people I was refering to when I wrote "some on
> this
>> List itself have suggested / propagated  bizarre conspiracy theories about
>> the Mumbai Terror Attacks."
>>
>> The divides that you seek to create become obvious in these words of yours
>> "the deep bias Indian society has been nurturing against Muslims at
> the most
>> ordinary levels." You cannot be quite such a dimwit to not know that
> "Indian
>> Society" includes "Indian Muslims".
>>
>> Your recent convoluted proposal has been "If Pakistan bans JuD, we
> should
>> demand banning of saffron outfits"
>>
>> What kind of a Zero-Sum game did you propose? Conversely your suggestion
>> reads "If Pakistan DOES NOT ban JUD, we SHOULD NOT demand banning of
> saffron
>> outfits"
>>
>> What does our banning or not banning in India of any 'outfit' have
> to do
>> with what Pakistan does or does not do?
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>> --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Life in a parallel universe - By Irfan Husain
> in
>> DAWN
>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 5:50 PM
>>
>> Dear Kshmendra
>> This is not the first time that Muslims are "realizing" that
> Muslim
>> terrorists exist. And this is not the first time that they are
>> "jolted" and are denouncing the acts of terror. I wonder if you
> have
>> heard about hundreds of peace marches and denouncements done by
>> madarsa students and scholars for last few years.
>>
>> As for the pleasant postscript of no demonizing of Muslims post-Mumbai
>> attacks, what is your criteria? On what basis do you say that. Just
>> because we have arrested one Pakistani boy, the attention has now
>> shifted to Pakistan. If that guy had also died, then everyone would be
>> shouting home-grown, home-grown, home grown terrorists. The media
>> doesn't reflect the deep bias Indian society has been nurturing
>> against Muslims at the most ordinary levels. Go out there and tell
>> someone you have a Muslim name and see how they react. How do they
>> look at you so differently if you wearing a beard and a skull cap. Am
>> I wrong?
>>
>> Javed
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Irfan Husain talks about 'so many Pakistanis' who are
> 'simply
>> not willing to face the truth.". That could be said about so many
> Indians
>> also of whom some on this List itself have suggested / propagated  bizarre
>> conspiracy theories about the Mumbai Terror Attacks.
>>>
>>> Worse still are those Indians who fleetingly acknowledge the
>> 'truth' but bury it in a web of words out which they extract
> deductions
>> that suggest "Oh! This was bound to happen. Such terror attacks are
> logical
>> outcomes of our own policies. We ourselves are majorly to blame for the
>> attacks
>> on us"
>>>
>>> One pleasantly astounding postscript of the Mumbai Terror Attacks has
> been
>> that it has seen no communal demonizing of the Muslims of India.
>>>
>>> But it is being directly or indirectly communalised by the above
> referred
>> to Indians who in their intellectually devious jugglery of words and
>> extricated
>> cross-connections seem intent on breaking the solidarity shown this far by
>> Indians of all hues.
>>>
>>> The Muslims of India and indeed many of Pakistan have been jolted by
> the
>> Mumbai Terror Attacks and motivated into taking up issues head-on against
>> the
>> convoluted interpretations of Islam that justify such terror attacks. They
>> need
>> support in such introspection and efforts. They do not need facile
>> argumentation
>> that finds excuses for or justifications for such terror attacks. That
> will
>> do
>> harm to the Muslims and will do no good
>>>
>>> Kshmendra
>>>
>>>
>>> EXTRACTS:
>>>
>>> - ... there are thousands out there who have developed elaborate
>> conspiracy theories to explain who was behind the recent terrorist
> atrocity
>> in
>> Mumbai.
>>>
>>> - It would seem that millions do not accept the evidence available,
> and
>> are seeking to fit in the attacks with their world view in which nothing
> is
>> as
>> it seems; ....... In this parallel universe of smoke and shadows, reality
>> shifts
>> according to your point of view, and there is no such thing as objective
>> truth.
>>>
>>> - .....  many Pakistanis are in denial about the extent of the terror
>> networks active on our soil, and the threat they pose to our country.
>>>
>>> - ..... it is a matter for concern that so many Pakistanis are simply
> not
>> willing to face the truth.
>>>
>>> - ..... what are our leaders doing to crush the monsters we have
> created
>> ourselves? Surely it is not enough to elicit sympathy for our victim
> status
>> without doing something to change it.
>>>
>>> - .... the conflict over Kashmir is used to legitimise the actions of
>> groups like the Lashkar-i-Taiba.
>>>
>>> - The ongoing crackdown against a handful of known terrorist leaders
> and
>> groups will, I fear, result in little except to divert foreign pressure.
> We
>> have
>> seen that in the past, the same suspects were picked up for brief stints
> in
>> jail
>> or house arrest, and released as soon as the crisis was over.
>>>
>>> - .... since Zia's destructive decade in the 1980s, a climate of
>> religious extremism has come to dominate the national agenda. In this
>> environment, a generation of Pakistanis has grown up thinking it is
>> perfectly
>> acceptable to persecute religious minorities, marginalise women and kill
> in
>> the
>> name of Islam.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Life in a parallel universe" - By Irfan Husain
>>> DAWN
>>> 13th Dec 2008
>>>
>>> IF you do a Google search with 'CIA + RAW + Mossad + Mumbai
>> attacks' as your parameters, you will get about 51,200 results.
>>>
>>>
>>> So clearly, there are thousands out there who have developed elaborate
>> conspiracy theories to explain who was behind the recent terrorist
> atrocity
>> in
>> Mumbai. Some of these theories have even appeared in the letters column of
>> this
>> newspaper. Sadly, Hamid Gul, the ex-head of the ISI, is one of the chief
>> proponents of such hare-brained theories. The fact that he rose to become
> a
>> three-star general makes one wonder about the promotion policies prevalent
>> in
>> our army.
>>>
>>>
>>> It would seem that millions do not accept the evidence available, and
> are
>> seeking to fit in the attacks with their world view in which nothing is as
>> it
>> seems; where we are all manipulated by forces that pull the strings from
>> behind
>> the scenes; and where we are ultimately helpless to change anything. In
> this
>> parallel universe of smoke and shadows, reality shifts according to your
>> point
>> of view, and there is no such thing as objective truth.
>>>
>>>
>>> Over the last week, my inbox has been flooded with at least 300 emails
>> regarding the last two columns I wrote about the Mumbai attacks. I have
> been
>> attacked for being naïve, as well as a traitor. But I have been supported
> by
>> other readers for calling a spade a spade. So clearly, there has been a
> very
>> strong reaction to the gruesome events across the border.
>>>
>>>
>>> I had suggested that many Pakistanis are in denial about the extent of
> the
>> terror networks active on our soil, and the threat they pose to our
> country.
>> And
>> while we have become accustomed to the growing mayhem they cause within
> our
>> borders, other countries are not going to put up with their activities
> when
>> their citizens are slaughtered by them. Despite the conclusive evidence
> that
>> the
>> recent attacks were launched from Pakistan by Pakistanis, many angry
> readers
>> have asked me for proof. Others have accused me of betraying my country.
>> Luckily, most of these diatribes have been poorly worded and argued, thus
>> absolving me of the duty to respond.
>>>
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, it is a matter for concern that so many Pakistanis are
>> simply not willing to face the truth. For unless they do, they will not
>> demand
>> the change of policy and direction that gave birth to these terror groups
> in
>> the
>> first place.
>>>
>>>
>>> However, it is important to remember that Pakistanis are not the only
> ones
>> given to spinning elaborate conspiracy theories to explain the most
>> straightforward events. For example, millions are convinced to this day
> that
>> the
>> 9/11 attacks were caused by the CIA and/or Mossad. I even came across a
> guy
>> who
>> said the Japanese were behind the attacks to avenge the atomic bombing of
>> Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Millions believe that Princess Di was killed by
> the
>> British secret service at the behest of the royal family because she was
>> going
>> to marry a Muslim.
>>>
>>>
>>> Most of these fantasies are harmless parlour games that occupy people
> with
>> lots of time on their hands. But when a country emerges as a focal point
> for
>> the
>> global jihad, and people across the world are killed as a result of this
>> terror
>> campaign, clearly responsible leaders are duty bound to take action. And
> if
>> the
>> leadership of the country concerned is unable or unwilling to act, what is
>> the
>> rest of the world supposed to do?
>>>
>>>
>>> In our case, the establishment responds to international opinion and
>> pressure by pleading that Pakistan is the biggest victim of terrorism, as
>> President Zardari has said in a recent op-ed piece in the New York Times.
>> This
>> is certainly true, but what are our leaders doing to crush the monsters we
>> have
>> created ourselves? Surely it is not enough to elicit sympathy for our
> victim
>> status without doing something to change it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Since it is not easy to close our eyes to the reality of terrorism in
>> Pakistan, given the grisly toll it exacts almost daily, many Pakistanis
> find
>> all
>> kinds of reasons to explain and justify it. These range from Palestine to
>> Iraq
>> to Afghanistan, and are seen by both right and left as a legitimate
> response
>> to
>> western attacks on Muslim lands. Closer to home, the conflict over Kashmir
>> is
>> used to legitimise the actions of groups like the Lashkar-i-Taiba.
>>>
>>>
>>> What many Pakistanis forget is that these terror groups are more
> lethal
>> for us than they are for other countries. How, for example, would the LeT
>> have
>> furthered the cause of Kashmir by vicious attacks on soft targets in
> Mumbai?
>> The
>> fact is that in purely tactical terms, the killing of innocent civilians
>> does
>> not gain any cause any support.
>>>
>>>
>>> The ongoing crackdown against a handful of known terrorist leaders and
>> groups will, I fear, result in little except to divert foreign pressure.
> We
>> have
>> seen that in the past, the same suspects were picked up for brief stints
> in
>> jail
>> or house arrest, and released as soon as the crisis was over.
>>>
>>>
>>> One problem that we do not examine closely enough is the fact that
> since
>> Zia's destructive decade in the 1980s, a climate of religious
> extremism has
>> come to dominate the national agenda. In this environment, a generation of
>> Pakistanis has grown up thinking it is perfectly acceptable to persecute
>> religious minorities, marginalise women and kill in the name of Islam.
>>>
>>>
>>> It is this acceptance of an extremist mindset that has created
> limitless
>> space for terror groups to thrive in. Add to this outlook the disputed
>> border
>> with Kashmir and the porous (and also disputed) frontier with Afghanistan,
>> and
>> you get a scenario for sanctioned mayhem. The final ingredient in this
>> lethal
>> cocktail is a tottering economy that is simply not capable of generating
>> gainful
>> employment for millions of young Pakistanis.
>>>
>>>
>>> But the rest of world is not interested in these problems. It wants
>> Pakistan to crack down on terror groups now, and put them out of
> commission.
>> However, given the lack of a national consensus and the political resolve
>> needed
>> to combat this menace, it is difficult to see the PPP-led government
> taking
>> strong action, especially if the army is not solidly onside.
>>>
>>>
>>> And here's the rub: for over two decades, the military and our
>> intelligence agencies have been using many of these militants to fight
> their
>> proxy wars. Many retired officers have developed personal and ideological
>> links
>> with the groups they handled while in uniform. To expect all this to
> change
>> overnight is to demand too much of the fledgling democratic government.
>>>
>>>
>>> irfan.husain at gmail.com
>>> http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20081213.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>