[Reader-list] Regarding the notion of signifier and signified.

[taraprakash]

Hi Taha. No matter how much I want to keep my identity to myself, the 
government has ways to know it. I don't want to pay tax to the government as 
I know that it is not properly used. But can I help it? That luxury is 
available to some but not to all. Think about the species close to extinct, 
those that have been identified have a slim chance of being made protected 
by law, if they have not been identified, even that chance is not there.A 
poor  person can be tossed from here to there (like Muslims in the name of 
being Bangla Deshis) but if you have identity between an individual sign to 
the entire structure, it becomes difficult. No matter what communal mindset 
of Javed says, my, not a Muslim, heart goes to Kasab, he is nobody's 
responsibility, he belongs nowhere. An India might face the same fate in 
future. As long as my identity is available in some electronic databases 
available to (say judiciary or such other agency that can be considered more 
or less fair) one can say that I am x's responsibility. Again, no matter how 
much I want to, my identity is not sacred or secret now. If I make some 
efforts I can most of the details that matter about Taha Mahmood. So sharing 
of your identity cannot be a sufficient reason for opposing such a move. 
Identity is itself a bourgeois concept. I think the prolitariat has a lot to 
get from such an identity card.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
To: "taraprakash" <taraprakash at gmail.com>
Cc: "Sarai" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Regarding the notion of signifier and signified.


> Dear Taraprakash,
>
> Thank you for your mail.
>
> You wrote-
> I just wanted to maintain that it doesn't
>> have to be a private firm issuing the cards.
>
> I feel that it is highly unlikely that given the times we live in, the
> Indian government can conduct such a grand exercise like issuing
> identity documents to almost one billion people without the help of
> private sector. The private sector will share a major portion of
> responsibilities insofar as the production or manufacturing of the
> cards is concerned and will perhaps share minor responsibilities as
> far as distribution and maintenance is concerned. I say this from my
> first hand conversations with various officials from the office of the
> Registrar General and by following  news stories posted on the web
> regarding MNIC in the last three years.
>
> We do not know the exact nature of the involvement of private sector.
> The primary reason being no such information is publicly available.
> The only way we can make a conjecture regarding the scale of
> involvement of private sector is by surveying technology related trade
> journals and by closing watching the graphs of scrips of publicly
> listed companies. We do know that the semi conductor division of
> Philips called NXP, the Tata Consultancy Services and Bartonics, a
> Radio Frequency Identification chip manufacturing firm based in
> Hyderabad, have emerged as the main players. We also know that a Delhi
> based firm called Shonkh Technologies was also involved in the
> beginning. Shonkh Technologies unfortunately had to reconsider its
> bidding options with respect to MNIC because of a Supreme Court
> injunction which debarred its scrip to be traded. I also believe that
> Shonkh Technologies was blacklisted by SEBI.
>
> I think if the Government of India wants all of us to have a National
> Identity Card and they have a policy in place and they have a time
> line to follow to insure that such a card gets delivered then I do not
> think that what you and I or few people on this list say or write will
> have any bearing on that. I think if such a card is introduced then I
> will have also have one.
>
> Now having said that, the question then remains for us is Can we as
> citizens of this country articulate the issue of documented individual
> identity beyond the media inspired format of questioning, for
> instance- Do we need a National Identity Card? Well 89% percent of our
> viewers think that we do. And Sagarika smiles!! Before tossing the
> Question of the Day to her Experts.
>
> I think we can and it need not be dependent on expert knowledge. It
> can be as commonsensical as you deem it to be.
>
> All we have to do is to ask [?]
>
> Basic and Fundamental questions. And search for their answers.
>
> For instance if the National Identity Card is going to be an
> individual identity document then we can begin our inquiry by asking
> say for instance-
>
> What Constitutes the identity of a person?
>
> According to you it is the relationship between the signifier and
> signified. Like you there are few more people out there who have
> invested some part of their time thinking about the notion of
> identity.
>
> There is Rene Descartes, for instance, who believes that identity is
> subject to ones consciousness of ones mind. He believes that there is
> a duality between the mind and the body. And that identity is nothing
> but the faculty to locate the self in consciousness. In other words
> identity is the act of knowing we we are which must be independent of
> the our bodily organs, including the brain. Descartes of course makes
> a distinction between the brain which is material and immaterial
> elements like the mind.
>
> Leibeniz on the other hand presents a very simple notion regarding
> identity, that is, he avers that identity is a numerical entity. Given
> the apparent simplicity of this notion many people are charmed by it.
> Leibeniz thinks that if X is identical to Y, then whatever is true of
> X must be true of Y and vice versa.
>
> In direct opposition to quantitative or numerical identity is
> qualitative identity, where although x is as same as y because they
> belong to the same type but they are not numerically identical. For
> instance a tiger from Bengal will be qualitatively similar to a tiger
> from Gir insofar as both are tigers but they will not be numerically
> similar.
>
> Furthermore identity is imagined in time or temporal dimensions, which
> is called Synchronic Identity, for instance Manmohan Singh the Prime
> Minister of India in 2008 is syn-chronically identical to Manmohan
> Singh in 2006.
>
> Opposed to Synchronic identity is Dichronic identity. For instance,
> Ram played hockey with his friend Yuvraj when is was young was the
> SAME Ram who played Chess with Saleem when he was young. Here one and
> the same person is imagined in different stages of time.
>
> To add to these views is metaphor of Ship of Theseus wherein the
> argument is, if different parts of the ship are changed over period of
> time to such an extent that all parts are changed over the period of
> the time then would it be the same ship. So for instance, if
> biologically speaking our body is constantly renewing and discarding
> cells then are we the same person as we claim to be. Can we be
> absolutely sure that there is no difference between us when we are
> mere foetus, to when we were crawling, to when we young adults, to
> when we became adults? If there is some difference and our self
> perception was different then how can we be characterized as same
> person?
>
> The premise in any argument related to an Identity card is that we are
> same people with the same body and same brain, that there is a
> physical continuity over period of time. Is this premise valid?
>
> John Locke, maintained that identity is a function of memory. That
> personal identity is a criteria of memory. The possession of an
> uninterrupted flow of self conscious awareness.
>
> Then there are other narratives of identity which relate to identity
> as sameness and identity as selfhood.
>
> Paul Ricoeur maintains that idem is the Latin root which corresponds
> to identity as sameness. And ipse corresponds to identity as selfhood.
> Ricoeur also suggests that identity shares a distinct relationship
> with character that is, character which is a set of distinctive marks
> which permits the re-identification of a human individual as being the
> same.
>
> These are few ways in which identity have been imagined in the past.
> Now given this we can think aloud about how has the Government of
> India imagined identity? or What are the reasons which the officials
> of the Registrar General have put forth to map us? Are those reasons
> reasonable? If so how? We need to know them because they concern us?
> If the Indian Government asks me share my personal details with them,
> then, I would do it, unhesitatingly, because, I trust them, because at
> the end of the day it is my Government too but at the same time I
> would like to engage anyone who is interested in telling me as to how
> has the current dispensation imagined individual identity? Is this
> imagination just? Will it be justly used?
>
> Warm Regards
>
> Taha
>
> N.B: All the above definitions of identity are gleaned from three
> sources. They are- Critique of Pure Reason by John Locke, Discourse on
> Method and Meditations on First Philosophy by Rene Descartes and The
> Princely Impostor by Partha Charterjee Chapter VIII, The Identity
> Puzzle, pp 115-129
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/27/08, taraprakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear all and Taha. As I said in my earlier mail that I am not speaking as 
>> an
>> expert in this matter. Your claims are, I am sure, based on research and 
>> my
>> assertions are based on what I think a common sense approach.
>>
>> My reference to US was not to argue that since US has such a system in
>> place, India too must go for it. I just wanted to maintain that it 
>> doesn't
>> have to be a private firm issuing the cards.
>> It is in country like ours that we have to prove our identity to 
>> demonstrate
>> that we belong  to the country we were born in. As I stated in an earlier
>> mail that sometimes people have to prove that they are actually not dead 
>> or
>> that their signifiers have been misappropriated by their relatives. I 
>> also
>> said earlier that one multipurpose identity card (may be a passport 
>> issued
>> at birth) can make all other identity cards redundant. But since I have 
>> all
>> this andd I have nothing new to add, I must not waste the time of the 
>> list.
>> Thanks for reading.
>> Regards