[Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III

[Partha Dasgupta]

Dear Pawan,

If you notice my response, and you have read it, do let me know where I have
denigrated Rashneek or claimed that he is incorrect.

I have no issue with the 're-created history' or otherwise.

What I have objected to is the casting of Muslims as invaders or foreigners.

Rgds, Partha
...........................

On Jan 10, 2008 1:46 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Partha ,
>
> We must apprecaite Rashneek who must have spent a huge time and countered
> an attempt by "someone" to re-create history.Rashneek has bought to us the
> reality which gives an indepth knowledge about Kashmirs hostory , which was
> mis represented by "someone" with little knowledge of the particular issue.
>
> Let us atleast be honest in admitting the facts .
>
> Pawan
>
>
> On 1/10/08, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Partha,
> >
> >               I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over
> > pawan,chanchal mails.    I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of
> > Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek
> > mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that  Rashneek will be
> > more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point
> > wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of
> > ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails.  I
> > would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead
> > of responding to somebody.
> >
> >
> > Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and
> > Magnitude-III"
> >
> > "
> > > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things
> > unwittingly."
> >
> > If I slightly change this ,
> >
> >    If you are born in a certain land and
> >       1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your
> > fault.
> >       2)  Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you
> > learned but kept them out
> >            you wasted the time in learning them first and for not using
> > them second).
> >
> >
> > Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and literature
> > ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books kept at
> > different places.  Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT
> > LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat
> > every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names
> > the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI
> > SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA,
> > GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many
> > kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become
> > poets and kings
> > and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and the
> > people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or their
> > caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive one
> > should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy
> > to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull destruction
> > will be completed.
> >
> >
> > If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least)
> > either Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know
> > that MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and
> > idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from
> > Sanskrit.
> >
> > " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of
> > our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of
> > history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on
> > the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when
> > that vakh/shrukh was written."
> >
> > I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand for
> > all practical purposes.  Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The
> > regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and
> > terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is
> > either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the
> > things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is
> > use full or not).
> >
> > --Next coming back to the argument,
> >
> > People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in their
> > own way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate about
> > the original preserved history and the exact meanings.
> >
> > Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development or
> > Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the answer
> > is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more worsen
> > way.  You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in this
> > mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them out
> > repeatedly.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dhatri.
> >
> > Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > 1.   'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not
> >      follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for
> > 'foreigners'.
> >      It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part
> > of
> >      the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered
> >
> >      foreigners.
> >
> > 2.  The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the
> > local
> >     populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend.
> > However,
> >     if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then Harsha
> > was by
> >     birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as
> > per the
> >     Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam.
> >
> > 3.  Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about the
> > destruction
> >     of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to both
> > Temples and
> >     Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed.
> >
> > 4.  Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby happily
> > throwing
> >     Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it
> > does not make
> >     Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted
> > for whatever
> >     reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the
> > Rajatarangini was certainly
> >     a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour
> > may have been.
> >     We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's origin.
> >
> > 5.  All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts
> > did despoil
> >    some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going
> > to rebuild
> >    all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and
> > where? While we
> >    are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese
> > structures all over
> >    India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other
> > buildings. That sounds
> >    rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be spent
> > I do hope it's
> >    spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other areas
> > that this country
> >    needs shoring up on.
> >
> > Rgds, Partha
> > ................................
> >
> > On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi Rashneek,
> >
> > This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths.  Not only the
> > terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in
> > this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same
> > meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to
> > refer in times.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dhatri.
> >
> >
> > rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com> wrote:
> > PART-III
> >
> >
> >
> > I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been
> > pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist
> > historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge
> > historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and
> > Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not
> > just Kashmir alone.
> >
> > It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as
> > a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their
> > acts.
> >
> >
> >
> > Harsha"The Iconoclast"
> >
> >
> >
> > Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context
> > of the above discussion.
> >
> >
> >
> > My learned friend writes
> >
> >
> >
> > *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty
> >
> > four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana
> >
> > attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"*
> >
> >
> >
> > This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions
> > Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a
> > question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the
> > beginning of second series of his essay he says
> >
> >
> >
> > *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in
> >
> > **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing
> > embodies a
> >
> > singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and
> >
> > accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He
> >
> > describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without
> >
> > favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to
> >
> > maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of
> >
> > reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons,
> >
> > of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all
> >
> > furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in
> > **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and
> > the
> >
> > historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because
> >
> > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and
> >
> > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South
> >
> > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.*
> >
> >
> >
> > Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of
> > the readers
> >
> >
> >
> > *He is especially important because
> >
> > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and
> >
> > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South
> >
> > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.*
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and
> > Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone*
> >
> >
> >
> > To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an
> > article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning
> > newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what
> > my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious
> > leanings..
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how
> > unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya
> > Muktapida,
> > Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development
> > and
> > prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Tillthe
> > advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less
> > indigenous
> > rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent
> > of
> > Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting
> > thread
> > among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their
> > subjects."
> > *
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims*
> >
> >
> >
> > Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say
> > about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various
> > articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which
> > Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what
> > Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always
> > been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials
> > have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their
> > bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about
> > "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we
> > will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the
> > forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an
> > American Student.
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate**
> > **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. *
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *
> > http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm*
> >
> > *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof.
> > Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the
> > hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples
> > in
> > neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but
> > that
> > Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this
> > phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. *
> >
> > *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline
> > published
> > by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton
> > did
> > publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the
> > destruction
> > and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his
> > article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and
> > his
> > colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the
> > difference
> > in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples
> > of
> > other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally
> > devastating
> > attacks from Muslim armies.*
> >
> > *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had
> > heard
> > about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the
> > 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most
> > scholars
> > consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed
> > out
> > that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only
> > looting
> > the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological
> > reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the
> > intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also
> > mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in
> > Rajasthan
> > and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the
> > neighboring
> > kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to
> > be
> > endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own
> > kingdom,
> > the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type
> > of
> > vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy
> > not as
> > an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the
> > king
> > who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured
> > statue
> > in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in
> > his
> > kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander
> > temple
> > and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have
> > similarities,
> > the motivations were very different. *
> >
> > *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not
> > representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the
> > exception
> > to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed
> > by
> > the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples
> > offered
> > to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty
> > as
> > Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to
> > several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact
> > about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in
> > **India**really believes them. The
> > evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of
> > temples
> > and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by
> > the
> > various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist
> > historians
> > in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare
> > historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven
> > carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover
> > any
> > real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. *
> >
> > Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad
> > Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's
> > iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for
> > they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* *
> >
> > *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:***
> >
> > *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar.
> > Of
> > Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I
> > have
> > no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper.
> > Meanwhile, I
> > have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English
> > translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a
> > clinching
> > testimony.*
> >
> > *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called the
> > "Nero
> > of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" ( S.B. Bhattacherje:
> > Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995,
> > p.A-20).
> > He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu
> > and
> > Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had
> > created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data
> > on
> > 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a
> > typical
> > Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did,
> > viz.
> > to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir**
> > had
> > already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and
> > Turkish
> > troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.*
> >
> > *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he
> > still
> > ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic
> > ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his
> > centurions"
> > (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted
> > Hindu
> > temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than
> > temples.
> > All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two
> > of
> > them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so
> > characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the
> > town
> > or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the
> > Turk
> > king Harsha." (7:1095)*
> >
> > *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a
> > separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a
> > somewhat
> > peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition
> > of
> > iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted
> > Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his
> > employ,
> > he behaved like a Muslim.*
> >
> > *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as
> > proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at
> > all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is
> > making.
> > Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's
> > testimony in
> > the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she
> > simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she
> > has
> > been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony
> > even
> > while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. *
> >
> > *A.L.Basham*
> >
> > Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of
> > **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics"
> > *
> >
> > Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD
> > 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller
> > Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting
> > down
> > the images of the gods"
> >
> > It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to
> > various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did.
> >
> > Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying
> > that
> > the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King
> > enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation
> > that
> > King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders)
> > who
> > in this case happened to be Muslims.
> > Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he
> > destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the
> > contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's
> > Rajatarangni
> > Book 7 verse 1095
> >
> > *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple
> > which
> > was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." *
> >
> > Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for
> > Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana
> > uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word
> > Turuska
> > in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni.
> >
> > Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard
> > Elst,the
> > reasons for which are the following.
> >
> > 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of
> > Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible
> > sources
> > of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that
> > Islamic
> > rule was still some two centuries away.
> >
> > 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source
> > of
> > his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself
> > concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit
> > speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic
> > identification
> > of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with
> > the
> > complexity of his reign that I have referred to above"
> >
> > Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and
> >
> > others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did
> > destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote
> > Hinduism
> > or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be
> > doing
> > at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were
> > Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the
> > very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rashneek Kher
> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> > _________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Partha Dasgupta
> > +919811047132
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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-- 
Partha Dasgupta
+919811047132