[Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra
Nitya Jacob
nityajacob at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 1 20:44:03 IST 2008
Maybe we should go 60 million years back when India collided with the Asian landmass and started the process of throwing up the Himalayan range... It precedes religion and human beings by a little bit.
----- Original Message ----
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 3:00:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra
Dear Shuddha
By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the 1947 Rubicon.
What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths?
You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory.
Kshmendra Kaul
--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra
To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 1:00 PM
Dear Aditya,
Thank you for your response to the ongoing debate on the Amarnath
issue on this list.
On 01-Jul-08, at 10:17 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:
> . I don't think Muslims would have
> felt the same restrictions and protests in case of their Haj House's,
> structures etc. across India in every nook and corner.
>
If there is any haj house anywhere in India that has been built by
the arbitrary occupation of reserve forest land, it should be torn
down. As far as I know, this has not happenned, because Haj Houses
are located in dense urban areas.
> Then why these protests. Should we also demand that funds
> and land to various mosques in Kashmir including Hazaratbal be held
> back ?
I totally agree with you, the state should get out of the business of
funding any subsidies to any religious institution of any religion
whatsoever. I have earlier said on this list that the Haj subsidy
should be done away with, and every subsidy to every Hindu
institution, or pilgrimage, including the Amarnath and Kailash-
Mansarovar yatras. Religious institutions, sects, movements are
resourceful enough to be able to look after themselves and their
adherents.
>
>
> Those who scream at top of their voice about Demographic Changes
> are nothing
> but taking a bit too far. How much polulation would a 40 hectare land
> accomodate anyway ? The biggest demographic change was with the
> exodus of
> more than 3 and half lakh Kashmiri Hindus from the valley. Sadly,
> its a
> forgotten tragedy.
>
I agree with you, in my last post, I have said that the question of
'Demographic Change' is a red herring, and does more damage than good
to the movement against land transfer in Kashmir. However, changing
the character of 40 acres of land can disturb the ecology of a
region. As can any attempt to convert a limited duration seasonal
pilgrimage into a year long, or nearly year long affair. It is
doubtful whether the fragile ecology of the region can sustain the
burden of 'lakhs' of pilgrims throughout the year, or even for a very
long time each year. The plan for the erection of permanent
structures on those 40 acres opens out the possibility of a much
longer pilgrimage period, with many more pilgrims than the ecosystem
of the area can sustain. An objection to this fact is not an
objection to the myth of 'demographic change'. I find your coinage of
the term polulation interesting. Is it a compound of population and
pollution ?
> As my great-grandfather was the first Ornithologist of Asia, I've
> some if
> not all information on Environment, its protection and also tilted
> government policies in relation to Kashmir especially. Major
> ecological
> imbalance occur when locals push tons of waste material and toxic
> substances
> into the lakes like the Dal. Many know what it has resulted it now.
> Also,
> the land mafia in Kashmir (Mufti being strong part of it) is
> another major
> force. They cut thousands of trees to clear land and sell illegally
> or maybe
> legally through corrupt administration and revenue officers.
>
Again, I agree with you, the actions of the land mafia in Kashmir
(which have occurred throughout the last sixty odd years, and before)
are responsible for the present crisis in the ecology of the Kashmir
valley.
Perhaps the biggest land mafia of all were the rulers and courtiers
of the erstwhile Dogra state of Jammu and Kashmir, and of course the
big landowners, (some of whose burden on the land was relieved when
the land reforms occurred in the 1950s).
best
Shuddha
>
>
>
> On 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Rahul,
>>
>> Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors
>> would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying
>> to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the
>> streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of
>> thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for
>> environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years.
>> Why should Kashmir be different?
>>
>> Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a
>> moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the
>> sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness'
by
>> elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any
>> other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way
>> of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to
>> environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their
>> insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on
>> judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I
can see
>> why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they
>> ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the
>> purported 'sincerity' of the protestors.
>>
>> Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a
>> sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is
>> identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said
>> anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come
>> to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later.
>>
>> Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the
>> demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer
>> of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion
>> that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue
>> for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear
>> that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to
>> the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage
Season' in
>> Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the
>> Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the
>> Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most
>> significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements
>> against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims.
>>
>> The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co
>> ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has
>> categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the
>> pilgrimage to Amarnath.
>>
>> None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of
>> circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims.
Would it
>> not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern
>> of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir.
>>
>> Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on
>> 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who
>> (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer
>> are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the
>> Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of
>> the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the
>> armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its
>> ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone.
>>
>> I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants
>> in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat
>> of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in
>> some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths
>> Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in
>> different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state
>> subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed
>> property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and
>> land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such
>> people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these
>> areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of
>> habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the
>> category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Shuddha
>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>> Raqs Media Collective
>> shuddha at sarai.net
>> www.sarai.net
>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net
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