[Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal

[radhikarajen at vsnl.net]

Behen Sonia, 

 in life there is nothing that is absolute but faith, faith in rule of laws in democratic life. As to your question about being reactions to violence to my person, property, friends, community, it only goes to show that we as citizens have started loosing faith in rule of laws in democratic life, no, I have not lost faith in rule of law, even when personal injury, friends injury, property damage, community under attack, my redressal will be thru laws of the land, not taking law INTO MY hands.

  Yes, I will draw attention when such redressal is delayed by the system of of which I am part of, yes, I will protest with loud voice., but not with violence, for if every one seeks redressal by taking law in their own hands, who will abide by the laws. ?

  Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: "S. Jabbar" <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 11:30 am
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Cc: Sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>

> Dear Radhika,
> 
> The cannon off my shoulder was only a turn of phrase, and not a 
> questionabout your faith in violence.  You may choose to see this 
> post as another
> 'outburst,' but since you have simultaneously declared your faith in
> non-violence and in Narendra Modi it's got me curious.
> 
> Is your faith in ahimsa absolute?  Do you believe in it as a 
> fundamentalprinciple or is it dependent on circumstances?  For 
> instance, if there is
> violence against your person, family, property, friend, community, 
> do you
> believe in hitting back or do you restrain the impulse because of your
> belief in violence begetting more violence?
> 
> From what you've written it seems that you would believe in 
> restraint.  In
> which case I'm baffled by your defence of Mr. Action-Reaction 
> Modi. Do you
> live in Gujarat?  Even if you don't, I've read from your posts 
> that you
> are/were a journalist and so must have followed the Gujarat events 
> closely.
> Regardless of Modi's track record in governance I'm surprised and 
> dismayedthat you refuse to condemn his hand in the murder of more 
> than a thousand
> citizens of this country in an event that can only be described as 
> a pogrom.
> 
> From the indoctrination camps amongst adivasis in the Dangs, to 
> pre-Godhra
> where gangs of so-called kar sevaks were already causing havoc in
> Faizabad-Ayodhya, to Godhra, where it is still a mystery as to how 
> a crowd
> managed to burn down an entire coach in a train that was moving, 
> to the
> post- Godhra 'action-reaction' that went on for weeks, to the 
> actions of the
> Police that refused to curb rioters, help victims, or cooperate 
> with the
> army when the central government was forced to call it out, to the 
> campswhere victims were forced to stay for months on end and no 
> steps were taken
> to rehabilitate them, all of this was under the able 
> administration of Modi.
> Four days after the violence was unleashed Geoge Fernandes as Defence
> Minister went to Gujarat to assess the situation.  He was nearly 
> lynchedwhen he tried to stop a crowd of Bajrang Dalis out on their 
> sacred mission
> to loot, kill and rape.
> 
> I went with a small delegation of citizens to meet the PM.  He 
> tried to make
> out that the whole thing (on day 4) was the creation of the media 
> and that
> things were not so bad.  When we challenged him he admitted things 
> werepretty bad.  When we asked why, when SIMI could be banned that the
> VHP-Bajrang Dal gangs in Gujarat could not, especially in this 
> crisis, he
> said that such things were difficult to do because 'we were a 
> democracy.'My answer to Vajpayee about the nature of our dubious 
> democracy is no doubt
> recorded in some file, somewhere, but that is neither here nor 
> there.  By
> day 4 it was clear to many people in this country, that like 1984, the
> Gujarat 'riots' was sponsored by the party in power to gain in the
> forthcoming elections, which it did.
> 
> In victory Modi could have been more generous with the victims of 
> violencebut he chose not to be.  The way the courts in Gujarat 
> operated post the
> violence  was hardly the mark of a well-governed state.  The only 
> case that
> was concluded successfully was the Bilquis Bano case where the 
> woman saw 12
> family members being butchered in front of her before she was brutally
> gang-raped.  Because your courageous Narendrabhai refused to take
> responsibility for her safety against the thugs in his party who 
> threatenedher life if she dared to depose before the court and the 
> judges in Gujarat
> who were noted by the Supreme Court to be acting prejudicially, 
> the case had
> to be transferred to Bombay.  Bilquis had to be moved from safe 
> house to
> safe house across our so-called free country until the judgment.
> 
> Can Muslims live in Gujarat without fear, and as equal citizens in 
> a country
> that you yourself have observed is their country of choice, or 
> must they
> forever cower in their ghettoes in fear?  Governance is not only about
> bijli, pani, sadak.  Leaders, particularly those whom we call 
> courageous,are not supposed to be leading mobs to the charge and 
> justifying their
> outrageous behaviour with talk of Gujarati Asmita.
> 
> Whether it is '47, '84, '92,  2002, and all the other big & small 
> communalor caste pogroms that have caused death, injury, fear, 
> distrust and
> destruction, they need to be soundly condemned, regardless of the 
> identityof the perpetrator or the victim.  Particularly from those 
> of us who think
> of themselves as practitioners of ahimsa.
> 
> --sj
> 
> On 7/6/08 2:22 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> 
> wrote:
> > Behen Sonia,
> > 
> >     at the outset, let me assure you I do not need your shoulder 
> to put my gun
> > on. For the simple reason, I do not have faith in violence and from
> > experience, of all humans, it is wellknown truth that violence 
> begets more
> > violence, as my faith is in pen, is mightier than sword, but 
> intelligent pen
> > can make changes in society without violence. !
> > 
> >    As to your outburst about self appointed muslim leaders names 
> are many, but
> > relevant ones are that of Owaisi,Banatwala, Jaffer Sharief, 
> Saman Khurshid  to
> > name a few, who are disliked by both hindus and muslims in their 
> outbursts> against the faith in their self styled kafir outbursts, 
> same is the story for
> > the togadia and the like, but I do not agree when you classify 
> Modi in the
> > list, for the simple reason that perhaps in free India, he is 
> the only CM who
> > had courage to act without fear or favour to control mobs of 
> hindus or muslims
> > in riots, inspite of psuedo secular media baying for him. 
> Muslims neglected in
> > development over the years with lack of education except the 
> scriptures, and
> > hard ways of life making a 12 year old slog for dharma as it is 
> called for
> > apprenticeship in mechanic or tyre repair shop, working for a 
> pittance is
> > tragedy that needs to be addressed just as the poor hindu boy 
> slogging it out
> > in hotels as cleaners. when bad governance does not take care
> > of education and right to have a decent earning opportunity for all.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "S. Jabbar" <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
> > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:22 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal
> > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > 
> >> Behen Radhika,
> >> 
> >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? Yourself, some
> >> others,all 800 plus million in this country?
> >> 
> >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders?  For instance,
> >> Togadiaand Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something
> >> they call the VHP or
> >> World Hindu Organisation.  Do they represent all Hindus across the
> >> globe (I
> >> don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked to vote) or
> >> do all
> >> Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because they
> >> happen not
> >> to be Muslim?  In which case what percentage of the 800+ million
> >> do you
> >> reckon?
> >> 
> >> And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed Muslim
> >> leaders?What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim
> >> leaders or for that
> >> matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu leaders?
> >> 
> >> Do you see where my logic is leading?
> >> To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land.  I'm afraid
> >> since it
> >> mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound to 
> others.>> 
> >> Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me when
> >> people can't
> >> come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their
> >> cannons off my
> >> shoulder.  
> >> 
> >> By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a
> >> rampage every
> >> Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by 'action-
> >> reactions' every
> >> weekend.  I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend Jumma
> >> namaz, snoozed
> >> the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all evening
> >> (where our
> >> only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she was out
> >> burningdown a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it
> >> came to the news
> >> this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging Hindu mobs
> >> in Indore
> >> and in Jammu.  
> >> 
> >> In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and bullied
> >> him to
> >> the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set himself 
> alight.>> Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts 
> who ran out
> >> afterFriday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not Salims,
> >> Hanifs or
> >> Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, bless
> >> their little
> >> souls.
> >> 
> >> Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the edit page,
> >> and I'd
> >> urge people to look at it  There were 2 unrelated photographs, but
> >> both as
> >> uncannily similar and different as they can get.
> >> 
> >> One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) in a
> >> provincialschool in China.  The blurb explained: these were
> >> special sports schools in
> >> the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared to 
> train>> children to excel in sports.  This photo showed potential 
> Olympic star
> >> gymnasts stretching their limbs.  One was bent down, two stretched
> >> theirarms sky high.
> >> 
> >> The other photograph needed no blurb.  It is something we see
> >> every other
> >> day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, 
> vermillion>> smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into 
> a ghastly O,
> >> handsraised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in
> >> outrage about their
> >> religious rights.  Now you can switch the costume, replace the
> >> tika with a
> >> green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our great
> >> democracyand people's right to get outraged, and the right to burn
> >> shops, beat up
> >> passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools and
> >> generally have
> >> the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or whether
> >> it is a
> >> canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us tearing
> >> our hair
> >> out & wasting our time & energy on these useless debates...
> >> 
> >> In the meanwhile there will be other countries where children will
> >> wake up
> >> after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink clean
> >> water, have
> >> access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to school,
> >> study, and
> >> then go to train to become the best a human being can become,
> >> whether in the
> >> arts or sciences or sport.
> >> 
> >> Best
> >> sj
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Behen Sonia,
> >>> 
> >>>  this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim
> >> leaders who
> >>> use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with
> >> other followers
> >>> of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob
> >> getting infuriated
> >>> by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on
> >> unleashing> the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17
> >> percent of one billion, on
> >>> fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at
> >> the behest of
> >>> self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the
> >> their choice on
> >>> different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too
> >> different> shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation.
> >> That is why the
> >>> attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his
> >> /her faith to
> >>> be anti-national are hated.
> >>> 
> >>>   regards.
> >>> 
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "S. Jabbar" <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm
> >>> Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal
> >>> To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >>> 
> >>>> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage
> >>>> 
> >>>> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s
> >> resistance,>> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically
> >> potent>> Hazratbal stage
> >>>> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public 
> clout in
> >>>> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for
> >>>> decades, successively
> >>>> and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad
> >> Abdullah>> included, to retain their hold on the masses.
> >>>> After falling into the militant lap during the early 
> nineties, the
> >>>> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by
> >>>> overhauling its management
> >>>> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the
> >>>> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board.
> >>>> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously
> >>>> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps
> >>>> out of the
> >>>> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their 
> opponents,>>>> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them.
> >>>> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf 
> Board¹s>>>> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be 
> allowed to be
> >>>> used for political
> >>>> activities.
> >>>> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat 
> leaders,>>>> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, 
> addressed the
> >>>> congregation at
> >>>> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s
> >>>> ban on
> >>>> political activity at the holy shrine.
> >>>> Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to
> >>>> counter any
> >>>> conspiracy. 
> >>>> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly 
> elections,>>>> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the 
> Kashmir issue and
> >>>> ³we cannot benefit
> >>>> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the
> >> sacrifices of
> >>>> martyrs.² 
> >>>> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the
> >>>> people by
> >>>> which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said.
> >>>> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was 
> not a
> >>>> matter of
> >>>> land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris
> >>>> for which
> >>>> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts.
> >>>> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris,
> >>>> and the
> >>>> Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said.
> >>>> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence
> >>>> in Jammu,
> >>>> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or
> >>>> tourist suffered
> >>>> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the 
> valley,²>>>> he said.
> >>>> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed
> >>>> and that
> >>>> the people had realized that they were out to barter away 
> Kashmiri>>>> land.³In the present circumstances, people should 
> take timely and
> >>>> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy
> >>>> burden on coming
> >>>> generations,² he said.
> >>>> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties,
> >>>> he said
> >>>> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour
> >>>> to even
> >>>> peaceful issues.
> >>>> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of
> >>>> Jammu and
> >>>> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said.
> >>>> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that
> >>>> Kashmiris would
> >>>> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense
> >>>> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no
> >>>> compromise on these
> >>>> sacrifices. 
> >>>> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the
> >>>> success of the
> >>>> public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine 
> Board.>>>> 
> >>>> From the Kashmir Observer
> >>>> 
> >>>> _________________________________________
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> 
> 
>