[Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured

Tue Jul 8 00:39:51 IST 2008

dear kshmendra

for now, all i want to say is that i am not for any kind of
nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead to, i think it will be
perhpas better for  humanity, if nation states disappear suddenly and
enable people to move freely on this planet earth....

i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so what.

desire for nation is not bad, i have huge admiration for people like
Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that cling on the that
state in the name of democracy or people is fradulent. Now dont tell
me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other

it is interesting to notice how people's simple faith gets translated
into something necessary costly rituals... say prem chand's Govdaan,
.. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for that i have every
right to undermine, a state, a religion or an identiy....and once it
becomes a system that gnaws the dignity  existential core of human
being,..... i want to restore that

one is free to remain glued to something as long as it keeps on
milking other's cow. that is why i talked about morals and ethics.

now see, there is a great democracy in america and england but when i
comes to their foreign affairs they looks barbarians....
and i dont know how to admire their democratic systems  endlessly if
there is no change.... right now, everyting is stuck,

just see, what their democracies did to afganistan and iraq.   i have
more respect for a poor afgani who
has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban commander and work in
poppy fields in comparison to some one who is drinking beer in new
york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism....

in that sense, i have nothing against politics, but against the
polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as jean paul sartre says
that politics enters through all the pores of your body,....and
realization of that  sensitizes me, realization of that reduces my
arrogance, and i think that is how i want to understand politics,

and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in politics.... now you that....

now religion, i believe,
the state has no business to enter the affairs of the shrine.... why
on earth state should provide facilites to a piligrim...
a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both physically and mentally....
and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death also... you might be
knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop before the amarnath cave
which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous for real piligirms to
climb it and jump on the other side of it....a true love of shiva will
be quite educated and brave and should understand the significance of
death and sprituality in one go...

i still dont understand how a shiva lover can throw stones at others,
or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri philisophy of shivaism
well you are within your rights to call it politics, but i see decadence in it

at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, it is free for all,

once we realize the absence of morals and ethics in our political
acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the politicians who love
to make a fool of each one of us.

about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at grass root level, in
the world history which not suffered humiliation at the hands of their
rulers.
that is why i am not interested in those who eulogise kings and queens
for this or that.... people have suffered, even when a great king was
constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in china, same goes
for the construction of great temples and mosques.......i see pain of
a human being in the form of an monument, beauty of it comes next....

that way i see the possibity of a shift in histroy, that way we can
see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of living, beyond
mindsets and old designs , old territories....

my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died long ago.... we are
finished with waste land even, we have come to a stage when even
writing a poem is impossiblity....

politics is dead in that sense...the issue is ethics, environment, and
my favourite word  'love' is kicking alive,

with love and regards
is

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Inder Salim
>
> You say "i know you know well what i am talking about...."
>
> No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about different things or it must be the limitations of my understanding.
>
> It must also be the limitations of my being able to express myself that you read meanings other than what I think I have placed in my words.
>
> - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" you are talking about. If you explain them in simple words, I might be able to comment
>
> - I spoke about "respect" for "constancy" in "political positions". That could or could not translate into "respect" for the person. That also does not preclude the ones being talked about being political adversaries or being enemies of my country
>
> - Let me give another example.  I see China as being (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards India on many fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in many spheres.
>
> - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan as continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no respect for (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over Kashmir especially in the context of it's duplicity with the "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things about and from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and Men's Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara Noor and Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and Amjad Islam Amjad
>
> - Saw your list of those you respect. I have no argument with you over that list.
>
> - You do not respect 'politicians'. For me that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would not respect "some" or even "most" politicians" but the political system is essential (in my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective of the form of Government or quality of Governance, every country has a political system. It has to have one. If there isn't one, there will be anarchy.  In the case of a "democracy", the politician is of critical importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows Laws, Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is enacted by Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every aspect of the quality of life in India (for example) is directly or indirectly affected on and effected by the Politicians. You may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to be. For me Politicians are extremely important entities to be evaluated and sieved in one's judgement.
>
> - I am a firm believer that my final societal identity is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All Inter- Nation interactions including those of their citizens are conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am a firm believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to Indian Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct if I have misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. Only the forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. All other aspects of our lives are linked to the country we belong to (because the Laws of the country govern every other aspect of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can even interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when Environmental Concerns take centre-stage.
>
> - Is the "Kashmir issue" about "Ethics & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree in some areas. I see it more as being about "Rights and Responsibilities" and even more so as being "Political" and about "Religion"
>
> - You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" having been disrespected.  I do not understand that judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the "Muslims" of Kashmir have been "disrespected".
>
> - You speak about the SASB affair having "undermined the sensitivity of ....  Muslims". Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of Muslims against Hindus.
>
> (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir Issue" is about "Religion")
>
> - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits" being about "ethics and morals". Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a Political affair. I see it more as failure of governance (both at the Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear atmosphere" to develop.
>
> At least in this mail I see the point that you are trying to make. Correct me if I understood wrongly. You state that you "know" what you should "respect" and seem to suggest I do not "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to your judgement.
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM
>
> Dear kshmendra
>
> i quote myself
>
> and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can begin
> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS
>
> it is again your choice to ignore the most important line of my last
> post... i dont feel insecure ....
>
> i know you know well what i am talking about....
>
> now see, you take a position with regard to 'Respect',
> you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or with small r, but
> u respect the politicians who are against the occupation of indian
> foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you think that they
> are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, right .
> i
> on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i have respect for
> a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a simple worker, a job
> less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect a poor man on
> the road side, i respect a tribalman  who is contantly being driven
> out of his ecology ,
>
>  i respect millions of landless people in india.... i have respect for
> the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and in that sense i
> respect a politician even.
>
> yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being a nationalist
> merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i respect my
> teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed in Bijbehara
> because he as a Congress pradesh president masterminded 1986 communal
> riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on the judge in delhi
> because he was languishing in the jail and could not afford to bail
> himself out.
>
> i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i have respect for
> those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the state or the
> power structures openly supress and disrespects the ethics and morals
> of the other....
>
> that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals as well.....
>
> that is why the land transter to shrine board undermined the
> sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri muslims...
>
> that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is also about ethics
> and morals as well..
>
> i see human being through this prism of ethics and morals ... i mix
> love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self and the other at
> the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics is exercised
> quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont regret about my
> position.
>
> at least i  know what i should respect
>
> with love
> inder salim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Dear Inder Salim
>>
>> I wish I had understood what point you were trying to make.
>>
>> What I did notice is your quoting me partially and out of context and then
> using that to put a spin on my words so that you could indulge in innuendos and
> make judgements about me.
>>
>> I was talking of having respect for the 'constant political
> position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was an example for the sake
> of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical declamations of the
> "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar Farooq) and their claims of
> their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a 'secular' one. It
> is called 'munaafaqat'.
>>
>> Just to explain it further, I similarly have respect for the 'constant
> political position' of Yasin Malik in that he wants (or used to want) the
> erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be an Independent Country
> with it's territories freed from both Indian and Pakistani control. Again I
> say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming
> his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to admit that he (and/or JKLF)
> had previous to that indulged in 'killings'
>>
>> I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and Yasin, but that does not
> stop me from acknowledging their constancy.
>>
>> Inder you talk about my 'positions' but you obviously have no idea
> of what they are. You only presume.
>>
>> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my country India is for me an
> enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up India or bring in violent
> divides between it's people is for me an enemy of India. They should be
> recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. Before your make another
> presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing with' and
> 'treating' as enemies neither automatically means nor is suggested by
> me should be done by repressive means or incarceration or State Violence.
>>
>> The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of no importance. They
> could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI
> or any other organisation.
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14
> injured
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM
>>
>> Dear Kshmendra
>>
>> I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political
>> position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani"
>>
>> just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani
>> too said similar about RSS.  He really dislkes anything secular
>> because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for
>> RSS. anything else is ambigous
>>
>> now i quote you again,  "It has amused me more to see how easily the
>> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other
>> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their
>> 'secular' credentials"
>>
>> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad
>> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the
>> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well
>>
>> now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to
>> hold one ... that is ok
>>
>> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar
>> today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news  KASHSMIR
>> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps
>> for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and
>> replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen
> to
>> us, we are politically  irrlevant  in the present political
>> situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it
>> from time to time. "
>>
>> now see how their brother is  the valley do the same things for their
>> own survial.  for example PDP, who need to something from time to time
>> to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the
>> valley..... what is so wrong about it  if everything else is not.
>>
>> and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being
>> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS
>>
>>
>> till then  best
>>
>> inder salim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Dear Sonia
>>>
>>> There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being
> the
>> start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the
> evaluation
>> that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For
> those
>> who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the
> celebration
>> than a Shrine/Mosque.
>>>
>>> Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and
> analyses
>> but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest
> about
>> what they had achieved and in the name of which religion.
>>>
>>> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense
>> rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and
> 'bakra' (of
>> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits
> of
>> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political
>> speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for
> religious
>> sermons.
>>>
>>> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among
>> others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid,
> or
>> visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan)
> and
>> yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat"
>> movement is a secular one.
>>>
>>> It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof
>> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates')
> are
>> able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials.
>>>
>>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have
>> much more respect for the constant political position of someone like
> Hurriyati
>> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments)
> who is
>> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory'
> should
>> be a part of Pakistan.
>>>
>>> I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it
> strange
>> that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory
> rally"
>> starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early
> '90s or
>> for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or
>>> for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s".
>>>
>>> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed
>> terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose
> to
>> call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen".
>>>
>>> Kshmendra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among
> 14
>> injured
>>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् "
>> <mail at shivamvij.com>, "sarai list"
>> <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM
>>>
>>> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory
> rally
>>> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani
> were
>>> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya.
>> These
>>> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/
>>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration.
>>>
>>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been
>>> politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir
> movement
>> was
>>> launched against the Maharaja.  What must have started off as an
> equally
>>> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed.
> That
>> was
>>> reason
>>> enough for mass rioting.  You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal
> in
>> the
>>> early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in
> '95
>> or
>>> for
>>> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s.
>>>
>>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious
> site
>>> becoming another site of contestation.  It would try and control what
> in
>> all
>>> likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent
>> event.
>>> And yet it decided to go ahead.  The stakes are high and I really
>> don't
>>> think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends.
>>> --sj
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम्
> विज्"
>>> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing
>>>> peaceful
>>> gatherings...
>>>
>>>
>>> o o o o
>>>
>>>
>>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among
>>>> 14 injured
>>>
>>> Special Correspondent, 5 July
>>>> 2008
>>> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm
>>>
>>> The clash
>>>> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land
>> transfer
>>>> issue
>>>
>>>
>>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among
>>>> 14
>>> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and
>>> supporters
>>>> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the
>>> Hazratbal shrine to
>>>> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land
>>> transfer issue.
>>>
>>> The call for
>>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of
>>> a faction of the
>>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar
>>> Farooq, head of another.
>>>> However, both were placed under house arrest
>>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other
>>>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal
>>> amid heavy deployment of police and
>>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered
>>> prayers besides addressing the people.
>>>
>>> Mr. Shah
>>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the
>>> government for putting
>>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest.
>>>
>>> A protester hurls back a tear
>>>> smoke shell towards the police.
>>>
>>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr.
>>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh
>>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a
>>>> strong procession,
>>> which was lathi-charged.
>>>
>>> Fourteen people, including Mr.
>>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was
>>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical
>>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for
>>> treatment.
>>>
>>> Even as rumours spread that he was critical,
>>>> Director SKIMS Abdul
>>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another
>>>> procession
>>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed
>>>> by
>>> police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another
>>>> Hurriyat
>>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a
>>>> procession
>>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar
>>>> area.
>>> _________________________________________
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