[Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue]]
Tapas Ray
tapasrayx at gmail.com
Tue Jul 8 03:33:08 IST 2008
Radhika and all others,
I have done it again. Many of the messages I thought I had posted over
the last few days, in fact went only to Radhika. Naturally, when she
responded, her messages came only to me, and did not reach the list. As
a result, the part that was actually posted, must have seemed disjointed
and confusing.
I don't know if anyone will have the patience to read the conversation,
but I am posting it anyway, as a sort of digest, starting from the point
where I think the irregularity began, so that those who are interested,
can see what it's all about. I have arranged the posts chronologically,
last one first. That way you will see what exactly each post was
responding to.
I have tried to get it right this time at least, but apologies in
advance if I have missed some post(s). And apologies also to members, as
well as the list administrators, for including one or two messages that
did go to the list. I had to do this to ensure some kind of continuity
and logical connection between one post and the next.
I don't know if this kind of thing happens to others, but it happens to
me all the time. Could the administrators please see if anything can be
done to prevent this? I mean, maybe changing the settings of the
software will help.
Tapas
PS: The first message below - the one directly underneath this PS - is a
continuation of the last message I sent to Radhika, which comes next,
and so on.
--------------------------------------------
Radhika,
I sent off the last email to you in a bit of a hurry, and missed a
couple of points. Good thing I thought of writing about those now - or I
wouldn't have known that I've been messing up not just one or two but
many of my messages (sending them to you and not the list), as a result
of which you have been doing the same by hitting reply or reply all. I
am to blame, totally.
I agree with you that politicians should stay away from religion in
their public lives. But this goes for all politicians and all religions.
Do BJP and Shiv Sena politicians set an example? You have given two
examples. Let me add one: many CPI(M) "leaders", at least among those
who operate at the local level, are involved in community Pujas in West
Bengal on a fairly large scale.
As for harmony, no one in his or her senses will say that's not needed.
But each community has to do its bit. Are you sure the Hindutva people
are always reacting, never acting? I have already pointed out (in the
last message, pasted below) one instance which seems to disprove that
theory: you believe Muslims started asserting their religious identity
through their dress after 1975. I suggested that they might have been
reacting to the Parivar, whose attitude was clear in a 1971 quotation
from the Organiser. We can probably go farther back, but later.
About bringing criminals to book, is it only Muslims that get off the
hook? No Hindu MLA, MP, or anybody with the right connections?
Tapas
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue]
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:10:13 -0400
From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Radhika,
I'm glad that you do not agree with those who want all Muslims to leave
India. But others do, and neither you, nor I, probably have the ability
to change that.
Before getting to the rest of my response, let me tell you this: I have
noticed that you have a degree of honesty and humanity. That is why I
take the time to engage in this conversation with you. Saying this is
not condescension on my part, but an expression of admiration. The fact
that we have viewpoints that are mostly opposed to each other, does not
diminish that admiration.
Now back to our debate/discussion/conversation. As for Muslims showing
their religious affiliation through dress, etc., I think everyone has
that right with regard to her/his own religion, ethnicity, etc. The
trend the world over, especially for minorities of various kinds, is to
show their identities, and not be defensive about those. For instance,
many Westerners of African origin choose African names for their
children these days. This has not been the case always.
I know an American of Serbian origin, who is as American as anyone can
be, and was a Marine in the past. But he has not Americanised (meaning
Anglicised) his first name, goes around the country playing Serbian
music and makes CDs of that music. He is not at all shy of identifying
himself as an ethnic Serb even though he abhors what has happened in the
former Yugoslavia, and even to people who turn away from him because of
that.
Then there's a good friend of mine, who happens to be a lesbian. Like
many homosexuals these days, she was not afraid to get "married" openly.
It was a Christian wedding, not a civil marriage. I attended the
wedding, along with lots of other people who are as heterosexual as one
can get, and who enjoyed themselves with the great food that was laid
out after the ceremony.
In democracy these days, equality is not the same as uniformity. It
embraces diversity.
As for the timeline of Indian Muslims asserting their identity, even if
your thesis about 1975 is true (I am not saying it necessarily is), note
that the RSS was formed long, long before 1975. And as you will see
below, Muslims were being told to accept Ram as their hero.
About the sources of the two statements and a slogan I quoted in my
other post (I suppose those are what you are referring to), I have not
copied anything from any TV channel. These have been quoted in articles
published in peer-reviewed academic journals. You can also find them in
books.
I would appreciate it if you, or anyone else, could email me a scan of
the Organiser article that contains quotation no.1, or better still the
whole issue, because their online archive seems to go back only to 2004.
As for quotation no.3, I wanted to read the entire resolution, but can't
access the RSS cite. Looks like a server problem. I'll try again later.
Here are the sources -
1. ‘‘Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems
will be all over ..." (Organiser, June 20, 1971), quoted on p.12 of
'Khaki Shorts Saffron Flags' by Tapan Basu and others, Orient Longman.
2. ‘‘Babar ki santan - jao Pakistan ya kabristan’’ - a common slogan
quoted on p.36 of 'Routine Violence: Nations, Fragments, Histories' by
Gyanendra Pandey, Stanford University Press.
3. ‘‘Let Moslems understand that their real safety lies in the
goodwill of the majority’’ (RSS resolution of March 18, 2002), quoted on
p.227 of 'Religious Fundamentalism in the Contemporary World', edited by
Santosh Saha, Lexington Books.
Tapas
radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:
> Tapas,
>
> please do not copy the words of celeb anchors of tv channels likes of Rajdeep and Barkha, I do not agree that muslims should vacate India, but they are expected to live in India in total harmony with the hindus in India, without showing off their religion up their sleeves , which started after 1975 war with Pakistan. The headgear they wear for prayers became public wear instead of use at prayer times at masjids, pathan dresses worn by cricketers became the identity of muslims of madrasas, and all political leaders started having iftar dawats for elections, which is blatent display of religion in politics, just as A Sonia wears thilak for vote gains, goes to hanuman mandir before rallies, it became clear the pulpits are used to mobilise votes for parties, this is the malignant growth in democracy where religion has no role in good governance.
>
> Muslims have to keep up their words of harmony in acts and deeds, and live like brothers in India, if not they are looked with suspicion that they have extra territorial loyalty to Islam, not the nation which takes care of them. It is as simple as that. This exactly makes those in "hinduthva " mode to revolt against all muslims good and bad, unfortunate as it is.
>
> As to laws of the land, with lax political will the criminals who use religion up their sleeve, it can be seen how law enforcing becomes exceedingly difficult as in the case of dawwood Ibrahim, son of police constable now Don, or a sohrabuddin an extortionist and murderer, as media always cries foul if a move is made to take any action against such blacksheep of the society, Afjal Guru and Geelani are the worst examples of failed prosecution as courts judge only on the evidence and materials produced before them, not on the failed prosecutions which play to the tune of their political masters, be it CBI or local police under the rule of parties. When we talk of prosecution and investigation and rule of laws, it should be remembered that the political will to be ethically and morally right has to be there to punish anyone who is violating the societal laws, is it there. ?
>
> If that were be so, many ministers that we see in cabinet should have been behind the bars for long. !
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008 6:02 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue]
> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>
>> Radhika,
>>
>> So you agree that, according to the logic of Hindutva, they should
>> leave India. The question then is, which of them should, and why.
>>
>> There are laws in India, designed to deal with every kind of
>> crime. Shouldn't these be used to deal with the terrorists within India?
>> That way they can be punished with jail terms or even the death
>> penalty, depending on the gravity of what they have done. In Pakistan, they
>> would probably be treated as heroes.
>>
>> About those Muslims who are not terrorists - you have already told
>> me that many such people exist - why should anyone want them to leave?
>>
>> As for appeasement, please recall what I said earlier - that the
>> "pseudos" appease the majority first, and only then the minorities.
>>
>> Tapas
>>
>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue]
>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 13:58:48 +0500
>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>> To: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
>>> CC: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Tapas,
>>> it is exactly, verbatim correct, but the truth is out of
>> estimated 5 crore muslims, only 2.37 crores of muslims migrated,
>> rest of the muslims, assured the national leaders that they would
>> live harmoniously like brothers with their hindu brothers, did
>> they keep their words. ? From Kashmir, to make it majority muslim
>> domain, hindus were driven out , is it harmony and national
>> leaders failed the citizens in governance and maintaining harmony
>> by giving preferential treatments to castes and faiths, which is
>> unacceptable in democratic rule where all have to treated and
>> governed equally.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:49 pm
>>>> PS:
>>>>
>>>> Radhika,
>>>>
>>>> Please see what you wrote yourself:
>>>>
>>>> radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> when nation was divided on the faith of being a nation for
>>>> muslims, it is logical that muslims have to get relocated in the
>>>> nation that they wanted. ?
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:07:30 -0400
From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> Radhika,
>
> Please tell me: have you heard or read these things anywhere?
>
> 1. ‘‘Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems
> will be all over’’.
>
> 2. ‘‘Jao Pakistan ya kabristan’’.
>
> 3. ‘‘Let Muslims understand that their real safety lies in the
> goodwill of the majority’’.
>
> Another thing, which I should have clarified in my earlier post: When
I used the word mother within quotation marks, I did not mean that I do
> not consider India my country. I used the quote marks to indicate a
> pun on the phrase mother India - in the commonly use way, which you
> are referring to, and also as a person with a body, who gives birth
to > the "monster child".
>
> I know that India is where I belong. I have returned to it in the
> past. I am now abroad, and will return again. I feel more at home in
> India than I do in any of the countries I have visited, and the
> country in which I have lived for a few years, at different times -
> even though I often feel as though I get more respect there, than I
do > in India.
>
> Tapas
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:07:38 +0500
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
To: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> Tapas,
> thank you for the response, your post which says the parivar asks
muslims to vacate is false propaganda at its worst as no parivar or its
members have ever said in so many words. For one, if a muslim is not
loyal to the nation, but more loyal to Pakistan, stays in India, marries
his progeny to pakistanis as spouse, then the question that naturally
arises is to whom are they loyal, to nation of their stay or to the
faith. If they are not loyal to the nation, the constitution itself has
laws to treat with such kafirs, be it hindus or muslims, then laws of
the land to deal with such traitors of the nation has a role to play.
Even if a hindu, staying in India, that is this Bharath is traitor he is
not rewarded for being traitor because he is hindu.
>
> As to constitution, it assures freedom and good governance for all,
religion has no role in good governance, but political parties over the
years, and its leaders have only relied on votes of communes such as
yadavs, reddys, gowdas, and various caste denominations, even candidate
is selected only after taking into account the votes of a particular
caste equation irrespective of any party. Muslims who have traditionally
been voting for Congress have now realised the importance of their
votes, go with winning candidate, this with sure confidence can be seen
as in karnataka elections where the Congress got marginalised and quite
a few muslims have joined BJP, so much for communal gossip of Congress
and its sponsored media and anchors.!
>
> The very game of reservations and quotas is a ploy to appease a
few sections of caste equations, real beneficiaries even after years of
such facility are in the miserable conditions as they were before. good
governance should have addressed the issue of education for all,
facilitation of vocation skills for alll, earning decent living for all
citizens of the nation, and not government jobs based on certificates
which with corrupt practise has become a costly affair. If free meal is
given, none wants to earn his meal, and the best way is to inculcate the
pride of being human, being with self respect, that is enough motivation
to earn the meal in honourable earning.., with good basic education,
good vocational skillsets, with opportunities for all to sustain themselves.
>
> Finally, as per the constitution all citizens have to be ruled
with equity and just laws, but the issue gets subverted when it comes to
civil laws, criminal laws as precedence are aplenty where religious
leaders of "minority" communities do not accept the common and just
laws. ? The end result of all this is open to see as each commune
organises itself to barter and bargain for better slice of the cake with
violent means, which is sad as in the case of naxals, gujjars and all
neglected lot, who are seeing the light in organising themselves to have
their say in governance, which clearly indicates of the bad and failed
governance of the democratically elected leaders. !
>
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 6:54 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue
> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>
>> Radhika,
>>
>> Let me just point out that, by asking Muslims to leave India
>> today, the Parivar is endorsing the two-nation Jinnah as opposed to
>> the earlier Jinnah. We can go farther back to discuss what turned
>> Jinnah into what he came to be. But all this is common knowledge.
>>
>> In any case, as you know very well, the Indian constitution does
>> not recognise Hindus and Muslims as two nations. Doesn't the Parivar
>> come dangerously close to being anti-national in that sense? And its
>> open use of violence in this project - what would you like to call
>> it?
>> In saying this, I am not making a fetish of the constitution, or
>> nationalism. One can be opposed to the constitution of one's own
>> country on points of principle, and one should not support everything
>> one's own country stands for, if some of these things are not
>> consistent with one's sense of justice, morality, ethics, etc.
>>
>> But the Parivar sees itself - and tries very hard to make everyone
>> else see it - as the only true nationalist organisation. To me, this
>> is simply a way of confusing people.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tapas
>>
>>>>
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:23:58 +0500
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
To: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
CC: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Dear Tapas,
>
> your write up made very interesting read, but alas, for me being
hindu is way of life, in this way of life, there is place for all other
ways of life, being an athiest is also okay in this way of life just as
a ritualist life for some one, for many rituals are just rituals with
out even knowing the reasons for the rituals, but even that is alright
in hindu way of life. My mother is this part of continent, I rever it as
my haven, without any quotes, I feel we can make it haven for all good,
as laws of land are supreme if implemented properly, sternly without
fear or favour. Any one in governance when he takes oath of governance
without fear or favour time and again it is proved that in free India,
sixty years of governance has been with fear and favours to the caste,
faith and region, it is then not democratic rule of law.
>
> All of us have friends who may follow different ways of worship,
lifestyles or beliefs but what matters is huamne approach to life,
compassionate, considerate and responsive to all in our lives. Rule of
laws which should not be, never be discriminative in sharing and caring
every citizen irrespective of his color, faith, region and caste can
make India heavenon earth.
>
> As to RSS, no doubt even that organisation is now seeing the winds
of changes in societal life, chinthan baitaks of austere meetings are
much comfortable in holding , ministers and every one are no more in the
same platform in common seating arrangements, as some are becoming more
equal than others in seating arrangements.! But basically, when nation
was divided on the faith of being a nation for muslims, it is logical
that muslims have to get relocated in the nation that they wanted. ?
>
> And just for the sake of arguments, hindus you say, are in
majority, but the truth of the matter is hindu society after british
rule is most divided society, thanks to the game of caste feel of the
society. Only the movement of pride united the hindu society against the
barbaric riots of the fanatics, acknowleding the fact that riots bring
miseries to all even if they are muslims. ?
>
> As of today, it is the turn of united muslims who are now divided
as shias, sunnis, and one can count another half a dozen denomination of
the divisive sects.
>
> But for me basically, all the communes united in the nation, makes
the nation a force to reckon with which none dare to violate even in
their dreams. All sections of the society need to be united as threads
of a stron rope that is our nation, just as all sections of thesociety
shall be governed fairly without fear or favour to any segment. Only
then we can say that we are successful in democratic life of live and
let live. That comes only with lot more tolerence and patience. Shraddha
and saburi, that is faith in ourselves to be good, patience in each of
us to be tolerent of each other is the need of the hour to the nation.
>
> Regards.
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