[Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured

Wed Jul 9 20:18:58 IST 2008

dear kshmendra

in the least i expect you not to contest the fact fact that the
country is run by thugs and dynasty politics or regligous fanatics.

and like you, i too want indians to win a cricket or hockey match, but
that does not dilute my whatever understanding of the freedom of human
spirit, you are free  to have your own convictions...but please
forgive me to quote again, this time not out of context, i believe,

jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth
that gives you your food).
'
is the indian map a 'thaali' which we use to eat, but where we
defecate ?.... not in pakistan, i beleive,  but actually here in
india...and that is not  unntural... and who owns this thaali? and you
know if there is someone who is denied a space to share this 'thaali'
why on earth this thaali is spared from punctures ( cheid ).  just
imagine if you were not born in a Brahmin family but in a landless
dalit family of Bihar or orrisa,  the same applies to a  'wattul'
(chamar) of kashmir. when we say we are nationalist we really defecate
on this kind of other, who is being harrassed by the state, whose
dignity has yet to be restored, who is still wondering about his being
labelled as Harijaan, it is indeed sad.

now profoundly, which i know you will not contest either

this is from poet abdul ahad zargar from kashmir

yeth seet nikam parim ba tadbeer, tas hinzay babi chom dam dam sheer
( i suckled the nipples of someone with whom i got married ) ( oh, the
translation is terrible)

now, here even the meaning of incest get reversed....
we are bound to arrive at new meaning once we are willing to expose
our beings to that unpridictable of reality....

jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth
that gives you your food).now please re-read your own quoted phrase,
thre is something good in it,

as i see the text written on the trucks

buri nazar walay tara munh kala,  ( go to hell if you think ill about me )

but there are some other trucks which read
buri nazar walay tera be bhalla. ( god luck to you even if you think
ill about me )

choice is ours, what we want for others, once we are gone,

love
inder salim

>

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Rahul
>
> Most people, I would think, howsoever strongly they believe in "Nationalism" would in the normal course of day-to-day living be somewhat 'indifferent' towards "Nationalism".  They would not be waking-sleeping obsessed with it. I am not.
>
> It is only when dismissiveness towards "Nationalism" is used to propagate 'so what if the country breaks up' that warning bells sound for someone like me.
>
> To use a cliched phrase, it  is akin to "jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth that gives you your food).
>
> Maybe it is intellectually and/or ideologically fashionable to dismiss "Nationalism"
>
> Interestingly "National Interest' is the 'mantra' being used to justify their position by everyone ranged on either side of the 'nuclear deal' divide. That is how it should be.
>
> Also interestingly, it has created some strange bedfellowship as between the Left and BJP. That is how it should be. Any friggin (Individual or Collective) Political, Social, Religious or Economic ideology should be secondary to "National Interest".
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
> --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured
> To: reader-list at sarai.net, "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 7:15 AM
>
> Dear Inder,
> I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what
> do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to
> your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring
> your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way  can we help Kashmiris and
> Kashmir and make a difference there?
>
> P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important
> to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise.
> 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I
> will accept it.
>
>
> Thanks
> Rahul
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14
> injured
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM
>> Dear Rahul
>> have u ever wondered why there is a song called '
>> imagine there is no country '
>> and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid,
>> then i
>> feel there is not even iron in the soul,
>> it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw....
>>
>> now what is soul?   whenever i go to  Socretes  as a
>> teacher i feel
>> the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ...
>> similarly when i read
>> myth , i see a good a king  in the form of Raja Harish
>> Chander who
>> abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great
>> prince? I
>> think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with
>> such a teacher
>> and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might
>> keep on coming and
>> going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called
>> no-man's
>> land
>>
>> I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a
>> mad character,
>> who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by
>> laws and
>> systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two
>> countries
>> smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip
>> a word, a
>> system, a status quo...may be i am also mad....
>>
>> but there is some method in this madness....and there are
>> many
>> practiontioners  of this madness in our world.. these mad
>> people have
>> worked passionetly for the understnding of human being.....
>> they need
>> space to be....
>>
>> further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM...
>> this can be
>> the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential
>> dignity of a
>> human being....
>>
>> France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a
>> single
>> currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in
>> Aisa,
>>
>> i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency
>> without his
>> toothless image on it....
>>
>> you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am
>> indifferent to nationalism....
>> and when people who listens similar music too share halva
>> puri or
>> nihiri/paya they really share love,
>>
>> but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of
>> other religion...
>> is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank
>> politics
>> in the name of democracy...
>>
>> now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your
>> opinion.....
>> i think women's issues is as important as environmental
>> issues, which
>> is as important as ethics and morals which is as important
>> as respect
>> for the common man....
>>
>> and above all, there is something called PAST which
>> surpasses our
>> written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut
>> that
>> memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us...
>> our
>> collective memory
>>
>> it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say
>> achha...unfortunately when
>> we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the
>> poem...
>> State officers and corrupt ministers of a country...
>>
>> i dont think i have been able to answer your question..
>> because you
>> feel majority is with you...i am minority within the
>> minority within
>> the minority...
>>
>> so love
>> is
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana
>> <rahul_capri at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Hi Inder,
>> > Your position of "not believing in
>> nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not
>> arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think
>> there is anything noble in being a nationalist
>> \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the
>> concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your
>> idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the
>> way to go.
>> > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an
>> Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine
>> there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon
>> and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing
>> kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya
>> will be distributed and all will go home and live happily
>> ever after. Is that likely to happen?
>> > A while back,when I was making the argument that
>> sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that
>> I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was
>> that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind,
>> Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then
>> there was the usual "I dont believe in
>> nationalism".
>> > Your dislike of nationalism may be  the principle
>> around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY
>> ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any
>> realistic and pragmatic course of action around that
>> principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this
>> mantra of  "not believing in nationalism",is
>> neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till
>> the time that nation states are a reality you cant just
>> ignore them or wish them away.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Rahul
>> >
>> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim
>> <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal;
>> Shabir Shah among 14 injured
>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM
>> >> dear kshmendra
>> >>
>> >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for
>> any kind of
>> >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead
>> to, i think
>> >> it will be
>> >> perhpas better for  humanity, if nation states
>> disappear
>> >> suddenly and
>> >> enable people to move freely on this planet
>> earth....
>> >>
>> >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so
>> what.
>> >>
>> >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge
>> admiration for
>> >> people like
>> >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that
>> cling on
>> >> the that
>> >> state in the name of democracy or people is
>> fradulent. Now
>> >> dont tell
>> >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other
>> >>
>> >> it is interesting to notice how people's
>> simple faith
>> >> gets translated
>> >> into something necessary costly rituals...say
>> prem
>> >> chand's Govdaan,
>> >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for
>> that i have
>> >> every
>> >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an
>> >> identiy....and once it
>> >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity
>> existential core
>> >> of human
>> >> being,..... i want to restore that
>> >>
>> >> one is free to remain glued to something as long
>> as it
>> >> keeps on
>> >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked
>> about morals
>> >> and ethics.
>> >>
>> >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and
>> england
>> >> but when i
>> >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks
>> barbarians....
>> >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic
>> systems
>> >> endlessly if
>> >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is
>> stuck,
>> >>
>> >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan
>> and
>> >> iraq.   i have
>> >> more respect for a poor afgani who
>> >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban
>> commander
>> >> and work in
>> >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is
>> drinking beer
>> >> in new
>> >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism....
>> >>
>> >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics,
>> but against
>> >> the
>> >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as
>> jean paul
>> >> sartre says
>> >> that politics enters through all the pores of your
>> >> body,....and
>> >> realization of that  sensitizes me, realization of
>> that
>> >> reduces my
>> >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to
>> understand
>> >> politics,
>> >>
>> >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in
>> >> politics.... now you that....
>> >>
>> >> now religion, i believe,
>> >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of
>> the
>> >> shrine.... why
>> >> on earth state should provide facilites to a
>> piligrim...
>> >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both
>> physically
>> >> and mentally....
>> >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death
>> also... you
>> >> might be
>> >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop
>> before the
>> >> amarnath cave
>> >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous
>> for real
>> >> piligirms to
>> >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a
>> true love of
>> >> shiva will
>> >> be quite educated and brave and should understand
>> the
>> >> significance of
>> >> death and sprituality in one go...
>> >>
>> >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can
>> throw stones
>> >> at others,
>> >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri
>> philisophy of
>> >> shivaism
>> >> well you are within your rights to call it
>> politics, but i
>> >> see decadence in it
>> >>
>> >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so,
>> it is
>> >> free for all,
>> >>
>> >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics
>> in our
>> >> political
>> >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the
>> politicians
>> >> who love
>> >> to make a fool of each one of us.
>> >>
>> >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at
>> grass root
>> >> level, in
>> >> the world history which not suffered humiliation
>> at the
>> >> hands of their
>> >> rulers.
>> >> that is why i am not interested in those who
>> eulogise kings
>> >> and queens
>> >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even
>> when a
>> >> great king was
>> >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in
>> china,
>> >> same goes
>> >> for the construction of great temples and
>> mosques.......i
>> >> see pain of
>> >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty
>> of it
>> >> comes next....
>> >>
>> >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in
>> histroy, that
>> >> way we can
>> >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of
>> living,
>> >> beyond
>> >> mindsets and old designs , old territories....
>> >>
>> >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died
>> long
>> >> ago.... we are
>> >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a
>> stage when
>> >> even
>> >> writing a poem is impossiblity....
>> >>
>> >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is
>> ethics,
>> >> environment, and
>> >> my favourite word  'love' is kicking
>> alive,
>> >>
>> >> with love and regards
>> >> is
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
>> >> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > Dear Inder Salim
>> >> >
>> >> > You say "i know you know well what i am
>> talking
>> >> about...."
>> >> >
>> >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about
>> different
>> >> things or it must be the limitations of my
>> understanding.
>> >> >
>> >> > It must also be the limitations of my being
>> able to
>> >> express myself that you read meanings other than
>> what I
>> >> think I have placed in my words.
>> >> >
>> >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES"
>> you are
>> >> talking about. If you explain them in simple
>> words, I might
>> >> be able to comment
>> >> >
>> >> > - I spoke about "respect" for
>> >> "constancy" in "political
>> positions".
>> >> That could or could not translate into
>> "respect"
>> >> for the person. That also does not preclude the
>> ones being
>> >> talked about being political adversaries or being
>> enemies
>> >> of my country
>> >> >
>> >> > - Let me give another example.  I see China
>> as being
>> >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards
>> India on many
>> >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in
>> many
>> >> spheres.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan
>> as
>> >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no
>> respect for
>> >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over
>> Kashmir
>> >> especially in the context of it's duplicity
>> with the
>> >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things
>> about and
>> >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and
>> Men's
>> >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara
>> Noor and
>> >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and
>> Amjad
>> >> Islam Amjad
>> >> >
>> >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have
>> no
>> >> argument with you over that list.
>> >> >
>> >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'.
>> For me
>> >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would
>> not
>> >> respect "some" or even "most"
>> >> politicians" but the political system is
>> essential (in
>> >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective
>> of the
>> >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every
>> country
>> >> has a political system. It has to have one. If
>> there
>> >> isn't one, there will be anarchy.  In the case
>> of a
>> >> "democracy", the politician is of
>> critical
>> >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows
>> Laws,
>> >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is
>> enacted by
>> >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every
>> aspect of
>> >> the quality of life in India (for example) is
>> directly or
>> >> indirectly affected on and effected by the
>> Politicians. You
>> >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to
>> be. For me
>> >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be
>> >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement.
>> >> >
>> >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal
>> identity
>> >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All
>> Inter- Nation
>> >> interactions including those of their citizens are
>> >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am
>> a firm
>> >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to
>> Indian
>> >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct
>> if I have
>> >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism.
>> Only the
>> >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries.
>> All other
>> >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we
>> belong to
>> >> (because the Laws of the country govern every
>> other aspect
>> >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can
>> even
>> >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when
>> >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about
>> "Ethics
>> >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree
>> in some
>> >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights
>> and
>> >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being
>> >> "Political" and about
>> "Religion"
>> >> >
>> >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri
>> "Muslims"
>> >> having been disrespected.  I do not understand
>> that
>> >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the
>> >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been
>> >> "disrespected".
>> >> >
>> >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having
>> >> "undermined the sensitivity of ....
>> Muslims".
>> >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is
>> linked with
>> >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you
>> yourself
>> >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one
>> of
>> >> Muslims against Hindus.
>> >> >
>> >> > (By your pointed reference to
>> "Muslims" you
>> >> seem to be in agreement with me that the
>> "Kashmir
>> >> Issue" is about "Religion")
>> >> >
>> >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to
>> kashmiri
>> >> pandits" being about "ethics and
>> morals".
>> >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a
>> Political
>> >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance
>> (both at the
>> >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear
>> >> atmosphere" to develop.
>> >> >
>> >> > At least in this mail I see the point that
>> you are
>> >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood
>> wrongly. You
>> >> state that you "know" what you should
>> >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not
>> >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to
>> your
>> >> judgement.
>> >> >
>> >> > Kshmendra
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim
>> >> <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > From: inder salim
>> <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near
>> Hazratbal;
>> >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured
>> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM
>> >> >
>> >> > Dear kshmendra
>> >> >
>> >> > i quote myself
>> >> >
>> >> > and once we are finished with these games....
>> only
>> >> then we can begin
>> >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS
>> >> >
>> >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most
>> important
>> >> line of my last
>> >> > post... i dont feel insecure ....
>> >> >
>> >> > i know you know well what i am talking
>> about....
>> >> >
>> >> > now see, you take a position with regard to
>> >> 'Respect',
>> >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with
>> capital R or
>> >> with small r, but
>> >> > u respect the politicians who are against the
>> >> occupation of indian
>> >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next
>> line you
>> >> think that they
>> >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are
>> Indian,
>> >> right .
>> >> > i
>> >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican,
>> ....... i
>> >> have respect for
>> >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social
>> worker a
>> >> simple worker, a job
>> >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state.
>> i respect
>> >> a poor man on
>> >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman  who is
>> contantly
>> >> being driven
>> >> > out of his ecology ,
>> >> >
>> >> >  i respect millions of landless people in
>> india.... i
>> >> have respect for
>> >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human
>> being and
>> >> in that sense i
>> >> > respect a politician even.
>> >> >
>> >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more
>> than being
>> >> a nationalist
>> >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect
>> rebels...... i
>> >> respect my
>> >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti
>> Mohd Syed
>> >> in Bijbehara
>> >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president
>> >> masterminded 1986 communal
>> >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw
>> shit on
>> >> the judge in delhi
>> >> > because he was languishing in the jail and
>> could not
>> >> afford to bail
>> >> > himself out.
>> >> >
>> >> > i have respect for the courage.... and
>> similarly i
>> >> have respect for
>> >> > those who uphold their existential beings
>> wheenver the
>> >> state or the
>> >> > power structures openly supress and
>> disrespects the
>> >> ethics and morals
>> >> > of the other....
>> >> >
>> >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and
>> morals
>> >> as well.....
>> >> >
>> >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board
>> >> undermined the
>> >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected
>> kashmiri
>> >> muslims...
>> >> >
>> >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri
>> pandits is
>> >> also about ethics
>> >> > and morals as well..
>> >> >
>> >> > i see human being through this prism of
>> ethics and
>> >> morals ... i mix
>> >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal
>> the self
>> >> and the other at
>> >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because
>> plolitics
>> >> is exercised
>> >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but
>> i dont
>> >> regret about my
>> >> > position.
>> >> >
>> >> > at least i  know what i should respect
>> >> >
>> >> > with love
>> >> > inder salim
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra
>> Kaul
>> >> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> Dear Inder Salim
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wish I had understood what point you
>> were trying
>> >> to make.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me
>> partially and
>> >> out of context and then
>> >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that
>> you could
>> >> indulge in innuendos and
>> >> > make judgements about me.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I was talking of having respect for the
>> >> 'constant political
>> >> > position' of people whoever it may be.
>> Geelani was
>> >> an example for the sake
>> >> > of comparing with (what I see as)
>> hypocritical
>> >> declamations of the
>> >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially
>> Umar
>> >> Farooq) and their claims of
>> >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call
>> being a
>> >> 'secular' one. It
>> >> > is called 'munaafaqat'.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly
>> have
>> >> respect for the 'constant
>> >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in
>> that he
>> >> wants (or used to want) the
>> >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu &
>> Kashmir to be
>> >> an Independent Country
>> >> > with it's territories freed from both
>> Indian and
>> >> Pakistani control. Again I
>> >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my
>> KP
>> >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming
>> >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish
>> enough to
>> >> admit that he (and/or JKLF)
>> >> > had previous to that indulged in
>> 'killings'
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I disagree with both positions, of
>> Geelani and
>> >> Yasin, but that does not
>> >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Inder you talk about my
>> 'positions' but
>> >> you obviously have no idea
>> >> > of what they are. You only presume.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in
>> my
>> >> country India is for me an
>> >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to
>> break-up
>> >> India or bring in violent
>> >> > divides between it's people is for me an
>> enemy of
>> >> India. They should be
>> >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as
>> enemies.
>> >> Before your make another
>> >> > presumption, the 'recognising',
>> 'dealing
>> >> with' and
>> >> > 'treating' as enemies neither
>> automatically
>> >> means nor is suggested by
>> >> > me should be done by repressive means or
>> incarceration
>> >> or State Violence.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The affiliations of these
>> 'enemies' are of
>> >> no importance. They
>> >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or
>> RSS or
>> >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI
>> >> > or any other organisation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kshmendra
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim
>> >> <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: inder salim
>> <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near
>> Hazratbal;
>> >> Shabir Shah among 14
>> >> > injured
>> >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Kshmendra
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more
>> respect
>> >> for the constant political
>> >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati
>> hardliner Syed
>> >> Ali Shah Geelani"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> just read your statment again and
>> remember when
>> >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani
>> >> >> too said similar about RSS.  He really
>> dislkes
>> >> anything secular
>> >> >> because a religous stand is logical for
>> both
>> >> Geelani sahib and for
>> >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous
>> >> >>
>> >> >> now i quote you again,  "It has
>> amused me
>> >> more to see how easily the
>> >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani
>> Bhat,
>> >> Shabbir Shah (and other
>> >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to
>> fool
>> >> people into buying their
>> >> >> 'secular' credentials"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee
>> wrote a
>> >> poem about the sad
>> >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words
>> moistened
>> >> the eyes of the
>> >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps...
>> you also
>> >> know it well
>> >> >>
>> >> >> now i know there are positions, well you
>> are
>> >> within your rights to
>> >> >> hold one ... that is ok
>> >> >>
>> >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was
>> demonstrating
>> >> at jantar mantar
>> >> >> today.... and i sarcastically
>> congratulated about
>> >> the news  KASHSMIR
>> >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by
>> kashmir
>> >> pandits ) It is perhaps
>> >> >> for the first time i heard about such a
>> news. He
>> >> understood and
>> >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont
>> resort to
>> >> thes acts who will listen
>> >> > to
>> >> >> us, we are politically  irrlevant  in the
>> present
>> >> political
>> >> >> situation.... we need to read these
>> situations
>> >> quickly, and we do it
>> >> >> from time to time. "
>> >> >>
>> >> >> now see how their brother is  the valley
>> do the
>> >> same things for their
>> >> >> own survial.  for example PDP, who need
>> to
>> >> something from time to time
>> >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite
>> politcal games
>> >> being played in the
>> >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it  if
>> >> everything else is not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> and once we are finished with these
>> games.... only
>> >> then we can being
>> >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> till then  best
>> >> >>
>> >> >> inder salim
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM,
>> Kshmendra Kaul
>> >> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> Dear Sonia
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the
>> religious
>> >> place Hazrartbal being
>> >> > the
>> >> >> start-point for the 'victory'
>> rally. It
>> >> only reinforces the
>> >> > evaluation
>> >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by
>> one
>> >> religion over the other. For
>> >> > those
>> >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what
>> better
>> >> place to start the
>> >> > celebration
>> >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators
>> may spout
>> >> various theories and
>> >> > analyses
>> >> >> but those who were a part of that
>> >> 'victory' were obviously honest
>> >> > about
>> >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of
>> which
>> >> religion.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931
>> 'bread
>> >> movement' or the intense
>> >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of
>> Sheikh
>> >> Abdullah) and
>> >> > 'bakra' (of
>> >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat
>> >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits
>> >> > of
>> >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been
>> used as
>> >> much for political
>> >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for
>> separatism as
>> >> they have been for
>> >> > religious
>> >> >> sermons.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar
>> Farooq (as
>> >> just one example among
>> >> >> others) indulge in such political
>> >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid,
>> >> > or
>> >> >> visit and seek support from his Political
>> Mecca of
>> >> OIC (and/or Pakistan)
>> >> > and
>> >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim
>> that the
>> >> "Hurriyat"
>> >> >> movement is a secular one.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It has amused me more to see how
>> easily the
>> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof
>> >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other
>> Hurriyat
>> >> 'moderates')
>> >> > are
>> >> >> able to fool people into buying their
>> >> 'secular' credentials.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might
>> lynch me for
>> >> saying this, but I have
>> >> >> much more respect for the constant
>> political
>> >> position of someone like
>> >> > Hurriyati
>> >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if
>> I
>> >> disagree with his arguments)
>> >> > who is
>> >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim
>> Majority
>> >> 'territory'
>> >> > should
>> >> >> be a part of Pakistan.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate
>> the
>> >> situations but I found it
>> >> > strange
>> >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the
>> >> "peaceful... victory
>> >> > rally"
>> >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege
>> of Hazrat
>> >> Bal in the early
>> >> > '90s or
>> >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar
>> e-Sharif in
>> >> '95 or
>> >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in
>> the
>> >> '80s".
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In all three 'siege'
>> mentioned, there
>> >> were bands of armed
>> >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three
>> religious
>> >> places. Some might choose
>> >> > to
>> >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or
>> >> "Mujahideen".
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Kshmendra
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar
>> >> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> From: S. Jabbar
>> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle
>> near
>> >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among
>> >> > 14
>> >> >> injured
>> >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम्
>> >> विज् "
>> >> >> <mail at shivamvij.com>, "sarai
>> list"
>> >> >> <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it
>> was
>> >> necessary to begin a victory
>> >> > rally
>> >> >>> from a religious place and how any of
>> us would
>> >> have reacted if Advani
>> >> > were
>> >> >>> to embark on another
>> 'victory' rally
>> >> from Somnath or Ayodhya.
>> >> >> These
>> >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only
>> add fuel
>> >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/
>> >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are
>> not neutral
>> >> sites and have been
>> >> >>> politically charged ever since the
>> 1930s when
>> >> the Quit Kashmir
>> >> > movement
>> >> >> was
>> >> >>> launched against the Maharaja.  What
>> must have
>> >> started off as an
>> >> > equally
>> >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned
>> violent
>> >> and a man was killed.
>> >> > That
>> >> >> was
>> >> >>> reason
>> >> >>> enough for mass rioting.  You may be
>> aware of
>> >> the siege of Hazrat Bal
>> >> > in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the
>> siege of
>> >> Charar e-Sharif in
>> >> > '95
>> >> >> or
>> >> >>> for
>> >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the
>> '80s.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the
>> state
>> >> cannot risk a religious
>> >> > site
>> >> >>> becoming another site of
>> contestation.  It
>> >> would try and control what
>> >> > in
>> >> >> all
>> >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet
>> another
>> >> communally charged and violent
>> >> >> event.
>> >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead.  The
>> stakes
>> >> are high and I really
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >>> think anyone is above using religion
>> to
>> >> further their political ends.
>> >> >>> --sj
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij
>> >> शिवम्
>> >> > विज्"
>> >> >>> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> This is what happens when you
>> prevent
>> >> people from addressing
>> >> >>>> peaceful
>> >> >>> gatherings...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> o o o o
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah
>> among
>> >> >>>> 14 injured
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July
>> >> >>>> 2008
>> >> >>>
>> >>
>> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The clash
>> >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the
>> >> "victory" in the land
>> >> >> transfer
>> >> >>>> issue
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference
>> leader
>> >> Shabir Shah was among
>> >> >>>> 14
>> >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a
>> scuffle
>> >> between police and
>> >> >>> supporters
>> >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they
>> offered
>> >> prayers at the
>> >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to
>> >> >>>> celebrate the recent
>> "victory"
>> >> in the land
>> >> >>> transfer issue.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The call for
>> >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was
>> given by
>> >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of
>> >> >>> a faction of the
>> >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported
>> by
>> >> Mirwaiz Umar
>> >> >>> Farooq, head of another.
>> >> >>>> However, both were placed under
>> house
>> >> arrest
>> >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other
>> >> >>>> leaders, however, reached
>> Hazratbal
>> >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and
>> >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered
>> >> >>> prayers besides addressing the
>> people.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Mr. Shah
>> >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior
>> leader
>> >> denounced the
>> >> >>> government for putting
>> >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under
>> house
>> >> arrest.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear
>> >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah,
>> Mr.
>> >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh
>> >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and
>> others led
>> >> a
>> >> >>>> strong procession,
>> >> >>> which was lathi-charged.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr.
>> >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was
>> >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of
>> Medical
>> >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for
>> >> >>> treatment.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was
>> critical,
>> >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul
>> >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he
>> was
>> >> stable. Another
>> >> >>>> procession
>> >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by
>> the head
>> >> imam, was dispersed
>> >> >>>> by
>> >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people
>> were
>> >> arrested. Another
>> >> >>>> Hurriyat
>> >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he
>> tried to
>> >> take out a
>> >> >>>> procession
>> >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar
>> >> >>>> area.
>> >> >>>
>> _________________________________________
>> >> >>> reader-list: an open
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>> city.
>> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> >>> To
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>> >> >> subscribe
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>> >> >>> To unsubscribe:
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>> >>
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>> >>
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>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> _________________________________________
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>> on media
>> >> and the city.
>> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> _________________________________________
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>> >> and the city.
>> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>> >> >> _________________________________________
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>> >> >> _________________________________________
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>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>> >> > _________________________________________
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>> and the
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