[Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar

Shuddhabrata Sengupta shuddha at sarai.net
Tue Jul 15 12:59:51 IST 2008 

Er,

Radhikarajen,

You have still not answered Kshemendra's question.

I still do not see how, when a state considers participating within  
an international system of co-operation on Nuclear Energy that  
requires members to clearly separate civil and nuclear facilities, in  
a manner that states do, for instance with regard to Chemical and  
Biological weapons, how, its prime minister becomes a lap dog of the  
US presidency. As a matter of fact, if India does go to the IAEA ( a  
body of which it is a member, already) it opens out possibilities of  
completely ignoring the United States of America. It does mean giving  
a set of guarantees to the International community about not acting  
like a rogue state with regard to Nuclear weapons. Of course, India,  
does not want to do that, just as it does not want to ratify the  
international convention against torture. The instruments of torture  
give a state so much leverage in terms of enjoying 'strategic  
autonomy' from the rights of its own citizens.

I am not at all surprised that the brand of patriotism that is  
fretting and fuming so much about 'strategic autonomy' requires  
mandatory commitments to weapons of mass destruction and torture, but  
signing the IAEA does not amount to being anybody's lapdog. Many  
years ago, I remember that the representatives of the trade unions  
tied to the coat-tails of the Communist Parties of India (Marxist)  
and the Communist Party of India (unbracketed), had protested in  
unison with their colleagues who were sympathetic to the BJP and the  
Congress, against conforming to International standards on labour  
conditions, during discussions on what were termed the 'social  
clause' on workers rights in the WTO agreements. This was done on the  
grounds of the same patriotism. Meaning, they had wanted to protect  
the Indian bourgeoisie's right to super-exploit Indian workers, in  
order to protect 'Indian' Capital in the global market.

It is natural that those who want to protect Capital against Labour  
should also want to hold on to Nuclear Weapons as a marker of  
strategic autonomy for the nation state.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels, and their bosses.

regards

Shuddha


On 15-Jul-08, at 12:35 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:

> Kshemendra,
>
>  lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been  
> exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your  
> choice, not mine.
>
>   Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid  
> will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what  
> cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog  
> of American president.?
>
>   Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>
>> Dear Radhikarajen
>>
>> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the
>> simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards
>> to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.
>>
>> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone
>> issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with
>> the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be
>> thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".
>>
>> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also
>> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations
>> with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
>> wrote:
>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM
>>
>> Kshemendra,
>>
>>  yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how
>> is it that
>> these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of
>> classified lines
>> for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ?
>>
>> Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that
>> our Mr.
>> Honest is keen about the deal. ?
>>
>>  What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the
>> deal in media
>> and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good,
>> is in the
>> national interest.?
>>
>>  In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open
>> domain after a
>> period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the
>> citizens to
>> know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making
>> process in
>> democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very
>> few democratic
>> countries which has not de-classified its classified documents
>> till date even
>> after being a free nation.
>>
>>   In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the
>> policies and
>> the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of
>> laws are
>> manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ?
>>
>> Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are
>> archived after
>> thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,
>> the citizens
>> know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and
>> all. Such is
>> the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will
>> be well
>> informed of the mistakes of the past.
>>
>> Do we have this in place. ?
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>>> Dear Radhikarajen
>>>
>>> Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian.
>> If
>>> my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with
>> you
>>> that they are so.
>>>
>>> You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions
>>> and my answers:
>>>
>>> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way
>>> whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally
>>> enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?
>>>
>>> 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves
>>> India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any
>> country
>>> of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA
>>> need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you
>> disagree?
>>>
>>> Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does
>> not
>>> come into the picture.
>>>
>>>
>>> Kshmendra
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>> <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
>>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM
>>>
>>> Kshemendra,
>>>
>>>  your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you
>>> are only
>>> theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world
>>> have seen how if
>>> you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags
>>> for the
>>> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in  Afghanistan
>> and
>>> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of
>>> Bush, do you need a
>>> hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.?
>>>
>>>  Regards.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>
>>>> Dear PK
>>>>
>>>> "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the
>> Imperialism."
>>>> That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous.
>>>>
>>>> Questions for you:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your
>> feared
>>>> "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is
>> NO.
>>> What
>>>> is yours?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically
>> place
>>>> India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My
>> answer
>>> is
>>>> NO. What is yours?
>>>>
>>>> 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still
>>> have
>>>> to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current
>>>> (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?
>>>>
>>>> 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place
>>>> India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter
>>> only
>>>> or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?
>>>>
>>>> Kshmendra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>> Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones
>> (read
>>>> Shuddha,
>>>> Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the
>> current
>>>> debate over
>>>> the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have
>>>> 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not
>>> want
>>>> to blame them for
>>>> their political positions, but I would accuse them for their
>>>> shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive
>>>> contribution or
>>>> position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves
>> 'liberated'
>>> since
>>>> we
>>>> write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that
>> our
>>>> 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our
>> handsome
>>>> salaries and
>>>> convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a
>>>> sin. However,
>>>> I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all'
>> approach.
>>>>
>>>> Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not
>>>> articulate their
>>>> position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness.
>>>> Their belief
>>>> of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based
>> on
>>> a
>>>> reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they
>>>> believe what the
>>>> TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or
>>> economic
>>>> policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since
>> he
>>>> is a reporter
>>>> himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support
>>> extended
>>>> by the
>>>> Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting
>>>> interviewed in
>>>> the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every
>>>> newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes
>> interviews
>>>> of the
>>>> politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the
>>>> Salwa Judum
>>>> infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at
>> regular
>>>> intervention
>>>> and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R
>>>> Narayanan on
>>>> the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place
>> of the
>>>> customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the
>>>> right-wingers
>>>> get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the
>>> moderator
>>>> or
>>>> Shuddha himself?
>>>>
>>>> I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the
>> US
>>>> administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and
>>>> continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do
>>> not
>>>> find any
>>>> fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact
>>> that
>>>> the US and
>>>> Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do
>> not
>>>> think the
>>>> readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if
>>>> someone sees
>>>> the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I
>>> consider the
>>>> nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on
>> the
>>>> poor and
>>>> less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation
>>>> against the
>>>> policies and politics of the US.
>>>>
>>>> Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism.
>>>>
>>>> Let me ask some simple questions:
>>>>
>>>> Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the
>> Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh
>> could go
>>>> ahead with
>>>> the Deal?
>>>> Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit
>> in
>>>> elections if
>>>> the Govt falls?
>>>> Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose
>> or
>>>> supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by
>> the
>>> BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of
>>> the
>>>> 'clash of
>>>> civilizations'?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Prakash
>>>> _________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net

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