[Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Tue Jul 15 15:32:39 IST 2008
How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation before being voted out after the body bags started coming in from Iraq. ?
Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: reader-list at sarai.net
> Dear Radhikarajen
>
> Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of
> American president.?" ?
>
> No I do not.
>
> Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know
> well the issues that you are talking about.
>
> Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-
> alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any
> "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they
> are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National
> Interest".
>
> Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear
> apartheid will come
> to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better
> for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that
> contention. It is factual.
>
> In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in
> the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also
> well known and accepted as fact.
>
> It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee
> publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime
> without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear
> apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of
> and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the
> hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear'
> countries.
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> wrote:
> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM
>
> Kshemendra,
>
> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been
> exchanging our
> thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine.
>
> Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear
> apartheid will come
> to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you
> want the one
> billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?
>
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> > Dear Radhikarajen
> >
> > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the
> > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards
> > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.
> >
> > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-
> alone
> > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal
> with
> > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be
> > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".
> >
> > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also
> > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations
> > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > wrote:
> > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM
> >
> > Kshemendra,
> >
> > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how
> > is it that
> > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of
> > classified lines
> > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ?
> >
> > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal
> that
> > our Mr.
> > Honest is keen about the deal. ?
> >
> > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the
> > deal in media
> > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good,
> > is in the
> > national interest.?
> >
> > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open
> > domain after a
> > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for
> the
> > citizens to
> > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making
> > process in
> > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very
> > few democratic
> > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents
> > till date even
> > after being a free nation.
> >
> > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the
> > policies and
> > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of
> > laws are
> > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ?
> >
> > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are
> > archived after
> > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,
> > the citizens
> > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and
> > all. Such is
> > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians
> will
> > be well
> > informed of the mistakes of the past.
> >
> > Do we have this in place. ?
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> =3E
> > > Dear Radhikarajen
> > >
> > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be
> Utopian.
> > If
> > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with
> > you
> > > that they are so.
> > >
> > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my
> questions
> > > and my answers:
> > >
> > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way
> > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally
> > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?
> > >
> > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves
> > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any
> > country
> > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked.
> USA
> > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do
> you
> > disagree?
> > >
> > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one
> does
> > not
> > > come into the picture.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kshmendra
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM
> > >
> > > Kshemendra,
> > >
> > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you
> > > are only
> > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world
> > > have seen how if
> > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body
> bags
> > > for the
> > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan
> > and
> > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog
> of
> > > Bush, do you need a
> > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.?
> > >
> > > Regards.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > > > Dear PK
> > > >
> > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the
> > Imperialism."
> > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and
> pompous.
> > > >
> > > > Questions for you:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your
> > feared
> > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer
> is
> > NO.
> > > What
> > > > is yours?
> > > >
> > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically
> > place
> > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA?
> My
> > answer
> > > is
> > > > NO. What is yours?
> > > >
> > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still
>
> > > have
> > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current
> > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?
> > > >
> > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG
> place
> > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal
> thereafter
> > > only
> > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM
> > > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated'
> ones
> > (read
> > > > Shuddha,
> > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the
> > current
> > > > debate over
> > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember,
> have
> > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do
> not
> > > want
> > > > to blame them for
> > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their
> > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive
> > > > contribution or
> > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves
> > 'liberated'
> > > since
> > > > we
> > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that
> > our
> > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our
> > handsome
> > > > salaries and
> > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that
> a
> > > > sin. However,
> > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all'
> > approach.
> > > >
> > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not
> > > > articulate their
> > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear
> sacredness.
> > > > Their belief
> > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based
> > on
> > > a
> > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that
> they
> > > > believe what the
> > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or
> > > economic
> > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter
> since
> > he
> > > > is a reporter
> > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support
> > > extended
> > > > by the
> > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting
> > > > interviewed in
> > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every
> > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes
> > interviews
> > > > of the
> > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of
> the
> > > > Salwa Judum
> > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at
> > regular
> > > > intervention
> > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R
> > > > Narayanan on
> > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in
> place
> > of the
> > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list,
> the
> > > > right-wingers
> > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about
> the
> > > moderator
> > > > or
> > > > Shuddha himself?
> > > >
> > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to
> the
> > US
> > > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and
> > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I
> do
> > > not
> > > > find any
> > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact
> > > that
> > > > the US and
> > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do
> > not
> > > > think the
> > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault
> if
> > > > someone sees
> > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I
> > > consider the
> > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on
> > the
> > > > poor and
> > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation
> > > > against the
> > > > policies and politics of the US.
> > > >
> > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism.
> > > >
> > > > Let me ask some simple questions:
> > > >
> > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the
> > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr
> Singh
> > could go
> > > > ahead with
> > > > the Deal?
> > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit
> > in
> > > > elections if
> > > > the Govt falls?
> > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left
> oppose
> > or
> > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by
> > the
> > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology
> of
> > > the
> > > > 'clash of
> > > > civilizations'?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Prakash
> > > > _________________________________________
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