[Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar

Wed Jul 16 15:20:35 IST 2008

Enclosed below, a leader from today's Times of India.

Quote: "It would be more honest to admit that the Indo-US nuclear deal is a
three-in-one document comprising a civilian energy cooperation agreement
with the US, de facto NPT and de facto CTBT."

However, the author does not explain how the consquences of nuclear testing
after the civilian nuclear energy agreement are any different from the
consequences of nuclear testing without the agreement.  In both cases, India
is going to be faced with international sanctions (of lesser magnitude, from
what I can see, after the agreement because of the assured-fuel-supply
clause, though I may very well be wrong).  However, by signing the deal, it
can at least negotiate with the NSG for supply of uranium.

Quote: "Interestingly, most western powers have been vigorously pushing for
the deal, although with greater sophistication than the sledgehammer tactics
characteristically employed by Americans. Diplomacy, after all, is not based
on altruism. Surely, they are not falling over one another out of love or
compassion for India."

The deal cannot be rejected by reason of it benefiting other nations.  What
has to be seen is whether it benefits us also.  After all, international
politics is not a zero-sum game.

All this does not add up to support of nuclear energy, however.  There might
be significant reasons to reject nuclear energy, namely a) its ecological
impact, b) its cost-efficiency.  But such dubious reasons as "national
security" and U.S. lapdogism should not come in the way of nuclear energy.

Please see
http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2007/08/insulating-indias-reactors-from-fuel.htmlfor
an excellent analysis of what would happen in a worst-case scenario
after signing of the deal.

--------------

Leader Article: What's In It For Us?
16 Jul 2008, 0000 hrs IST, Chandan Mitra

Does India need a civilian nuclear energy agreement with the US? Is this the
best deal we could have got? Why is the Bush administration trying so hard
to push India into signing this deal? Has the prime minister gone about it
in the best possible way? Are we bartering away our nuclear sovereignty in
the process, thereby endangering our goal to maintain a credible nuclear
deterrent?

These are some of the key questions that needed to be satisfactorily
answered in the context of the ongoing controversy that has snowballed to a
point where it threatens the stability of the Manmohan Singh government.

Unfortunately, the political rhetoric that is flying thick and fast for the
last one year and more has obfuscated the core issues involved.

Enough has been spoken and written about the need to secure India's energy
needs, especially in view of rising oil prices and India's near-total
dependence on imports. Sceptics, on the other hand, have argued that even
after investing billions of dollars to set up new reactors, nuclear power
will contribute just about 7 per cent of the country's energy requirements
by 2020.

But even if it is conceded that India needs every extra megawatt of energy
that can be generated, whatever the source, the question still remains
whether the Indo-US nuclear deal in its present form is the best that we
could have bargained for. On balance, it appears that the deal is good for
everybody else, apart from India.

First, we will end up putting huge sums into the coffers of foreign
manufacturers of nuclear reactors — mainly French, Russian and American.
Second, the estimated cost per unit of nuclear energy will be prohibitively
high compared to coal, gas and even crude. Can India afford power at such a
high cost when alternative sources have not been exhausted? Without getting
into the nuclear sovereignty issue, it can be asserted that the additional
energy to be generated through uranium-based reactors will be of dubious
benefit.

It is often argued that the US administration has been exerting pressure on
the Indian establishment because President George W Bush, reeling under
unfavourable popularity ratings, wants to exhibit it as his one great
foreign policy success. This is utterly fallacious: most Americans have not
even heard of this deal, given their proverbial insularity and
self-obsession. Further, the Republicans are hardly expected to make this an
issue in the November presidential election.

Interestingly, most western powers have been vigorously pushing for the
deal, although with greater sophistication than the sledgehammer tactics
characteristically employed by Americans. Diplomacy, after all, is not based
on altruism. Surely, they are not falling over one another out of love or
compassion for India.

Apart from the business potential, the deal is being driven in western
capitals by the motive of firmly roping India into the non-proliferation
regime. India has an unblemished record here, but there are concerns about
the future in view of the volatility of the Asian theatre. Since India
cannot officially be admitted into the NPT, the deal has attempted to
manoeuvre us into a situation where New Delhi becomes a de facto signatory
to the NPT, just as we will be conferred the dubious distinction of being a
de facto nuclear weapons state once we sign the deal.

Following the disclosure of the text of the IAEA safeguards agreement, it is
abundantly clear that, while international inspection and safeguards shall
be imposed permanently on our reactors, the exemptions remain doubtful. It
is widely known that for all practical purposes no further testing shall be
permitted. The government has repeatedly highlighted the "walk out" clause
to claim that India can test whenever it wants and even if the US imposes
sanctions, we can still negotiate with other countries in the Nuclear
Suppliers Group to maintain uninterrupted uranium imports. This is complete
hogwash. Can anybody in his right mind believe that the US will
patronisingly oversee the supply of fissile material by other countries even
after India conducts another nuclear test?

It would be more honest to admit that the Indo-US nuclear deal is a
three-in-one document comprising a civilian energy cooperation agreement
with the US, de facto NPT and de facto CTBT. A discussion on the merits and
demerits of the deal would be meaningful only if we begin from this premise
instead of deluding ourselves into believing that, possessed by a burning
desire to help India, the US wants to hand out a "give-give" agreement with
us and that nothing will change as far as our military nuclear programme is
concerned.

Whichever way you look at the deal, honestly or deceitfully, it is a huge
political albatross. Manmohan Singh has been forced to risk his government's
fate and enter into a questionable alliance with a party not known for
scrupulous adherence to norms of probity in public life. When the prime
minister first challenged the Left to pull out last September, it was
perhaps the best moment for the Congress to go for an early election buoyed
by high growth, manageable inflation and opposition incoherence.

Today, all three factors are ranged unfavourably against the ruling party.
Manmohan Singh has never claimed to be a master strategist, but others in
his party are known for their political acumen and manipulative skills.
However, they got cold feet last year and now the Congress is set to pay a
price for their vacillation. In politics, as in other spheres of life, you
win only if you dare; defeat is inevitable if you dither and delay.

(The writer is a member of the Rajya Sabha)

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:33, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:

> Exactly right, our PM should also know that aligning himself with leaders
> such as Bush, is invitation to such drastic misadventures, and Bush like
> leaders are capable of making indian leaders make similar mistakes in their
> war on terror, which can not be solved by violence, but by addressing the
> issues involved., sorting out Israel and Palestain issue, misuse of
> imposition of faith in governance and in democratic life, talking of
> "inclusive growth" but in practise exclusivity does not help democratic good
> governance as now proved by the rule of UPA, left has tolerated enough of
> this misrule of their own compulsions to keep out "communal" forces, but
> truth is Congress and parties such as RJD and SP are living on communal vote
> banks.!
>
>  Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:08 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> > Body bags reaching Australia was of their own choosing. Various
> > close allies
> > of the US refused to send their troops to Iraq. One of them was
> > France. And
> > people there perhaps preferred body bags. They voted out the
> > government
> > which refused to be hoodwinked by the Bush administration. Does it
> > sound
> > logical?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > To: <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 6:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> >
> >
> > > How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation
> > before being
> > > voted out after the body bags started coming in from Iraq. ?
> > >  Regards.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > >> Dear Radhikarajen
> > >>
> > >> Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of
> > >> American president.?" ?
> > >>
> > >> No I do not.
> > >>
> > >> Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know
> > >> well the issues that you are talking about.
> > >>
> > >> Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are
> > stand-
> > >> alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any
> > >> "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they
> > >> are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National
> > >> Interest".
> > >>
> > >> Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear
> > >> apartheid will come
> > >> to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better
> > >> for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that
> > >> contention. It is factual.
> > >>
> > >> In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in
> > >> the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also
> > >> well known and accepted as fact.
> > >>
> > >> It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee
> > >> publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime
> > >> without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear
> > >> apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of
> > >> and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the
> > >> hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear'
> > >> countries.
> > >>
> > >> Kshmendra
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM
> > >>
> > >> Kshemendra,
> > >>
> > >> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been
> > >> exchanging our
> > >> thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine.
> > >>
> > >>  Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear
> > >> apartheid will come
> > >> to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you
> > >> want the one
> > >> billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?
> > >>
> > >>  Regards.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm
> > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >>
> > >> > Dear Radhikarajen
> > >> >
> > >> > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the
> > >> > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards
> > >> > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.
> > >> >
> > >> > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-
> > >> alone
> > >> > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal
> > >> with
> > >> > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be
> > >> > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".
> > >> >
> > >> > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also
> > >> > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations
> > >> > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.
> > >> >
> > >> > Kshmendra
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > >> <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM
> > >> >
> > >> > Kshemendra,
> > >> >
> > >> >  yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how
> > >> > is it that
> > >> > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of
> > >> > classified lines
> > >> > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ?
> > >> >
> > >> > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal
> > >> that
> > >> > our Mr.
> > >> > Honest is keen about the deal. ?
> > >> >
> > >> >  What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the
> > >> > deal in media
> > >> > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good,
> > >> > is in the
> > >> > national interest.?
> > >> >
> > >> >  In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open
> > >> > domain after a
> > >> > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for
> > >> the
> > >> > citizens to
> > >> > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making
> > >> > process in
> > >> > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very
> > >> > few democratic
> > >> > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents
> > >> > till date even
> > >> > after being a free nation.
> > >> >
> > >> >   In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the
> > >> > policies and
> > >> > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of
> > >> > laws are
> > >> > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ?
> > >> >
> > >> > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are
> > >> > archived after
> > >> > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,
> > >> > the citizens
> > >> > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and
> > >> > all. Such is
> > >> > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians
> > >> will
> > >> > be well
> > >> > informed of the mistakes of the past.
> > >> >
> > >> > Do we have this in place. ?
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards.
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >> =3E
> > >> > > Dear Radhikarajen
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be
> > >> Utopian.
> > >> > If
> > >> > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with
> > >> > you
> > >> > > that they are so.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my
> > >> questions
> > >> > > and my answers:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way
> > >> > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally
> > >> > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves
> > >> > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any
> > >> > country
> > >> > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked.
> > >> USA
> > >> > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do
> > >> you
> > >> > disagree?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one
> > >> does
> > >> > not
> > >> > > come into the picture.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Kshmendra
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > >> > <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > >> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >> > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Kshemendra,
> > >> > >
> > >> > >  your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you
> > >> > > are only
> > >> > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world
> > >> > > have seen how if
> > >> > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body
> > >> bags
> > >> > > for the
> > >> > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in  Afghanistan
> > >> > and
> > >> > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog
> > >> of
> > >> > > Bush, do you need a
> > >> > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.?
> > >> > >
> > >> > >  Regards.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >> > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm
> > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Dear PK
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the
> > >> > Imperialism."
> > >> > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and
> > >> pompous.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Questions for you:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your
> > >> > feared
> > >> > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer
> > >> is
> > >> > NO.
> > >> > > What
> > >> > > > is yours?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically
> > >> > place
> > >> > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA?
> > >> My
> > >> > answer
> > >> > > is
> > >> > > > NO. What is yours?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still
> > >>
> > >> > > have
> > >> > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current
> > >> > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is
> > yours?>> > > >
> > >> > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG
> > >> place
> > >> > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal
> > >> thereafter
> > >> > > only
> > >> > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Kshmendra
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > From: prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com>
> > >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > >> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >> > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Dear all,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated'
> > >> ones
> > >> > (read
> > >> > > > Shuddha,
> > >> > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the
> > >> > current
> > >> > > > debate over
> > >> > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember,
> > >> have
> > >> > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do
> > >> not
> > >> > > want
> > >> > > > to blame them for
> > >> > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their
> > >> > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive
> > >> > > > contribution or
> > >> > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves
> > >> > 'liberated'
> > >> > > since
> > >> > > > we
> > >> > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that
> > >> > our
> > >> > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our
> > >> > handsome
> > >> > > > salaries and
> > >> > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that
> > >> a
> > >> > > > sin. However,
> > >> > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all'
> > >> > approach.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not
> > >> > > > articulate their
> > >> > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear
> > >> sacredness.
> > >> > > > Their belief
> > >> > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based
> > >> > on
> > >> > > a
> > >> > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that
> > >> they
> > >> > > > believe what the
> > >> > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or
> > >> > > economic
> > >> > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter
> > >> since
> > >> > he
> > >> > > > is a reporter
> > >> > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support
> > >> > > extended
> > >> > > > by the
> > >> > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting
> > >> > > > interviewed in
> > >> > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every
> > >> > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes
> > >> > interviews
> > >> > > > of the
> > >> > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of
> > >> the
> > >> > > > Salwa Judum
> > >> > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at
> > >> > regular
> > >> > > > intervention
> > >> > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President
> > K R
> > >> > > > Narayanan on
> > >> > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in
> > >> place
> > >> > of the
> > >> > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list,
> > >> the
> > >> > > > right-wingers
> > >> > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about
> > >> the
> > >> > > moderator
> > >> > > > or
> > >> > > > Shuddha himself?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to
> > >> the
> > >> > US
> > >> > > > administration that is waging war against mankind
> > everywhere and
> > >> > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I
> > >> do
> > >> > > not
> > >> > > > find any
> > >> > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact
> > >> > > that
> > >> > > > the US and
> > >> > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do
> > >> > not
> > >> > > > think the
> > >> > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault
> > >> if
> > >> > > > someone sees
> > >> > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I
> > >> > > consider the
> > >> > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > poor and
> > >> > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation
> > >> > > > against the
> > >> > > > policies and politics of the US.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Let me ask some simple questions:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the
> > >> > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr
> > >> Singh
> > >> > could go
> > >> > > > ahead with
> > >> > > > the Deal?
> > >> > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit
> > >> > in
> > >> > > > elections if
> > >> > > > the Govt falls?
> > >> > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left
> > >> oppose
> > >> > or
> > >> > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by
> > >> > the
> > >> > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology
> > >> of
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > 'clash of
> > >> > > > civilizations'?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Regards,
> > >> > > > Prakash
> > >> > > > _________________________________________
> > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > >> > > with
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> > >> > > > the subject header.
> > >> > > > To unsubscribe:
> > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > >> > > > list
> > >> > > > List archive:
> > >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > _________________________________________
> > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > >> > > with
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