[Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview

[Kashmir Affairs]

wonderful. Thanks for sharing this.
Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh rule. Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to have bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened with Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality.

Murtaza Shibli


--- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM

This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and
Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html
 
I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in
Kashmir" quote of Karzai. 
 
Kshmendra
 
 
 
Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir 
 
(The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine)
 
There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to their
life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the
President of Afghanistan,   Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four serious
assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all those
opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly
then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's
nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical,
human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists are
treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing as a
television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the
national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11.

 The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual
transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to more
Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city under
siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof vehicles
escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are fortified
with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining
access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian embassy
that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others.

 But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes with
being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure states in
the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably
articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to make
a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government and
by descriptions of him as being  little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the
President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely  committed  to building  an
Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world.  With a remarkable
understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun of
the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his people
and his country.  

 Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling  interview with  Amitabh Mattoo, Vice
Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and the
Afghan people.
 
Excerpts from the interview:
 
Hamid Karzai:  Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from
Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir?
 
Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, we
had many Afghan students.
 
Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir.
Have you studied that?
 
Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir!
 
Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it?
 
Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of terms.
 
Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame
him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great
grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was the
last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to
greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him "what
can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his
Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to
help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out,
consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind and
he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the wind.
Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from the
wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged
them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this.
 
Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name
was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very good
man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in
Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem they
kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor:  

 "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane". 
 
Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the
gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a
'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled
the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir.
 
Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time. 
 
Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field?
 
Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford University
and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for some
years. 
 
Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will do
very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence.

 And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in the
Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense asset
in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern science
and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that
combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in the
coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will
misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, say,
a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things.

 Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity.
Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi ji
has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond self.
Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you think the
young in India know what they are doing?
 
Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges.
 
Hamid Karzai: It is?
 
Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the balance,
while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity.
Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your roots.
 
Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined?
 
Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, as
you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and sustain
the right balance.
 
Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope that
it happens!
 
Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms of
what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have possibly
done better?
 
 
Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of
Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all
Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with each
other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the
Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances,
breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan boys
and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to the
commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who graduated
from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great
day. 

 I take pride also in  the improvement in health services, of  which 
earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country  the voice of
the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves,
freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in society. 

 I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer the
ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes before
you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on corruption,
grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want.

 I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial
procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden accounts. The
country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is nearly
355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled.

 Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is
flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is no
venue in which Afghanistan is not present. 

 Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever built
in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all of
this is due to the help of the international community. And, most importantly,
Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to this or
that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems?
 
Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems.  Poppy and the opium trade,
which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years.  We
have to work together: our society and the international community to deal with
this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. So,
desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of
agriculture. 

 Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't
have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, of
course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost in
the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the Taliban
from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people is one
of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country on
the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling
unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in
education.  I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the
American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan Government be
open to Jammu University  setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private
partnership in education? 
 
Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian public
and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You are
already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that you
can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, in
Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture.
 
Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of SAARC
how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about Pakistan?
You know there is concern  within India about Pakistan being  a spoiler.
 
Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for
Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but in
the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have blockages for
transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not hurting
the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a policy,
this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the world, of
this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in prosperity,
we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very much
recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of talents.
Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens sooner. 

 Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should
give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize
Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance.
Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from
politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations
that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan
just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in the
North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of
talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the
traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour  of the Pashtuns - as
a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to sections of
Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere? 
 
Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of
North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people will
vote for common sense and moderation.  And the people of North-Western Frontier
Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate,
life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were
extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the
Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of
extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected
extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them hope
for the future.

 ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate
with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the Pashtoon
lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to fellow
Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips of
extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals with
guns, liberate the rest. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan?
 
Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to talk
and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by fear
or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or the
coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the
Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And those
who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come
back. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, the
Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons? 
 
Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major issue
today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like
that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time like
today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people,  so much suffering,
destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah Khan is
the best service to the cause of  
 
Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the
region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel
that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and
international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on the
other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region.
 
Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United
States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost
entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world helped
us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct our
country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan are
mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other
countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We were
grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting the
Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro-
capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God
loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not
heard of sections of India being anti-American.
 
 Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan
anti-Americanism  seems to be very intense 
 
Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know
whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain
interests.  But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for the
Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for the
United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship between
India and the United States. We encourage that, very much.
 
Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a story
which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas and
there was some criticism in the media.
 
Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of
Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only   Indian
dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media that
they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with the
day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of it, not
to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas.
 
Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the days
of the Taliban regime? 
 
Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, Definitely,
not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in
Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up.  Among the youth here
there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we were
that age and even more. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that  he had learnt Hindi
from the films.
 
Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely.
 
Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies? 
 
Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know
if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us! 
 
Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A 
Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, but
it has also raised  concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What
kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan?
 
Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I was
very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half were
girls.

 Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not many
in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a lot of
them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, a
long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, very-very
hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function
better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no
shortcut, unfortunately.
 
Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are you a
happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person?
 
Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy.  And I was very happy yesterday,
in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am happy
when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people getting
education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy taking
roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan and
empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me pain,
personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of course, I
have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in
bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people
suffer. This makes me very angry. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, what
would be your principle agenda for the next term?
 
Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the agenda is
very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, where
you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, we
have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building schools,
keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part of the
world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep
adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on fronts,
quantity and quality. 

 Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals,
better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. So,
strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law,
improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of impurity,
where offenders go unpunished.
 
Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption.
 
Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very
full house of activity.
 
Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a
Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the
most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\
 
Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my
son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to learn
words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. This
morning he learnt 'Kela'.
 
Amitabh Matoo: What is his name?
 
Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. He
was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan had
the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan
Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people through
consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'.

 Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually
liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action and
consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire towards
the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one. 
 
Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency! 
 
Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome.
 
(The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine)


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