[Reader-list] Baggage of JKLF is too heavy to carry-by Dr.Shabir Chaudhary

Partha Dasgupta parthaekka at gmail.com
Sat May 10 16:14:55 IST 2008 

Hi,

1.   I was referring to the government(s) using illegal means in terms of
      released militants to solve 'problems' and the fact that the police
and the
      armed forces have gone ahead and used illegal methods in any case.


2.   Am cynical enough to believe that wars will never stop while human
beings
      are around - that is the nature of the beast called man. The more
'civilised' we
      get, the more brutal and uncompromising we become. Sure, we may change
      the name to 'skirmishes' or 'strategic battles' or something else, but
conflicts
      will remain and will continue to be solved by force instead of words.

      And do remember that words can also kill - students driven to suicide
by
      parental pressure and newly weds killing themselves due to taunts over

      not having a son or enough dowry.

      Would you also try to define anger and frustration as illegal?

Rgds, Partha
............................................

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Partha,
>
> You speak of what can be achieved under law in a conflict and seem at least
> to suggest the possibility of clean wars.  For centuries philosophers have
> argued for the idea of 'Just Wars,' in the mistaken belief that if somehow
> the war is just the burden of responsibility for the ravages of war would be
> less.
>
> When philosophers and historians judge wars the event is usually divided
> into jus ad bellum, the justness of the reason for fighting, and jus in
> bello, or the means used in fighting the war. If the conditions of jus ad
> bello exist, as for example the decision of Britain or the US to enter the
> Second World War then jus in bello...well, we can turn a blind eye for a
> bit.  That is why the carpet bombing of German cities or Hiroshima, though
> universally agreed upon as terrible has escaped censure. There are countless
> such examples, Kashmir included.  The Indian public largely believes in the
> moral high ground of the jus ad bellum (proxy war in our atoot ang) as does
> Pakistan (unfinished business of Partition where India reneged on an
> agreement) and this justifies the means.
>
> The only way to get around this conundrum, it seems to me, and to thwart
> the vast multi-trillion dollar military-industrial complex that supplies
> guns and bombs and lethal weapons that kill and maim and cause untold misery
> around the world is to start a movement to declare ALL wars illegal— just or
> unjust, forget it, can it, put it in the deepfreeze and come to the
> negotiating table because that is where you will end up anyway, war or no
> war.
>
> Best
> sj
>
>
>
> On 5/9/08 7:23 PM, "Partha Dasgupta" <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Rather than the events used in the article, was referring to the 'renegade
> terrorists' in terms of the government(s) using released militants as 'hired
> guns' to do what can not be achieved under law. (Though, we have seen enough
> of armed forces and police taking steps that are supposedly illegal and
> acting as goons)
>
> Sure, it is supposition on my part, but I find it hard to believe that the
> militancy in J&K could have reached such a virulent level with out some
> support from the establishment, or sections of it, for what ever purpose it
> may be - whether to oppose or to suppress.
>
> Rgds, Partha
> .......................................................
>
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:35 PM, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Partha,
> Akhila Raman is based in the US and this 2002 article is one that has been
> put together from secondary sources.  Her allegations about Chittisinghpora
> and attributing the assassinations of politicians like Dr. Guru, Mirwaiz
> Farooq and Abdul Ghani Lone to the renegades is mere conjecture. Though I
> hold no brief for them they are everybody's favourite whipping boys. But
> the
> picture is far more complex than the one presented by this article.
> Best
> sonia
>
>
> On 5/9/08 2:58 PM, "Partha Dasgupta" <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> Interesting article on 'renegade militants' being used by the governments
> > on
> both sides of the
> > border.
>
> http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/11241
>
> Rgds,
> > Partha
> ................
>
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> > <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Agencies at work on both sides maybe. My
> > friend; there is a lot beyond
> > ideologies here. Politics in its worst form;
> > is played to make things
> > remain
> > in status quo. God Bless this street dirt
> > Yasin Malik; who is being used
> > today; who knows what will happen tomrw with
> > him... May he have the same
> > fate; what he did to thousands of
> > people...!!!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > On 5/9/08, Partha Dasgupta
> > <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I thought that the ideology
> > of the JKLF was (and is) 'a united and
> > > independent Kashmir'.
> > >
> > > If
> > so, how does an Indian or a Pakistani side come into it?
> > >
> > > Irrespective
> > of all this, the fact remains is that it is highly unlikely
> > > that India or
> > Pakistan will give up their respective portions under any
> > > circumstances.
> >
> > >
> > > Rgds, Partha
> > > ....................................
> > >
> > > On Fri,
> > May 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM, rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > Qalab Bhai,
> > > >
> > > > Why blame poor Shabir Chaudhaury?Yasin Malik himself
> > has switched to
> > > Indian
> > > > side.
> > > > I am not claiming anything....
> >
> > > >
> > > > Rashneek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/9/08, Rebellious Koshur
> > <rebelliouskoshur at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Rashneek,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > It is unfortunate that after Dr. Shabir Chudhry has switched the side
> > >
> > to
> > > > > the Indian camp, his ideas make sense to you. He was very much
> > >
> > defending
> > > > > each and every action of Yasin Malik for years, why didn't
> > you quote
> > > him
> > > > > then. You would claim that he is repentant but
> > people in Kashmir
> > > believe
> > > > he
> > > > > is denigrated.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > Qalab Hussain
> > > > >
> > > > > *rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com>* wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > and this one isn't based on my data.......
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > By Dr Shabir Choudhry
> > > > >
> > > > > London, May 8 (ANI): Jammu and Kashmir
> > Liberation Front (JKLF) is a
> > > > sacred
> > > > > name for some, as they
> > sacrificed their lives and everything else
> > they
> > > > > valued in name of
> > liberating the state.
> > > > >
> > > > > They did that to promote the name of
> > JKLF believing that they were
> > > doing
> > > > > this for a good cause and for
> > the betterment of their divided and
> > > > oppressed
> > > > > nation.
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > But there are many who disagree with this. They believe that the
> JKLF
> >
> > > has
> > > > > brought them trouble, destruction and misery, and is root cause
> > of
> > > > problems
> > > > > of the people of Jammu and Kashmir since 1988.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > I am among those who, despite the baggage JKLF is carrying,
> > proudly
> > > > claimed
> > > > > to be member of this party, and furthermore
> > claimed to be among those
> > > who
> > > > > helped to form this party in Britain
> > in 1977. Like thousands of
> > others
> > > I
> > > > > have also suffered for this
> > party and have done everything possible
> > to
> > > > > promote true ideology of
> > the JKLF.
> > > > >
> > > > > Despite our sincere efforts to reunite the party and
> > sacrifices, fact
> > > > > however remains that the JKLF is divided in to
> > different factions;
> > and
> > > > > allegation is and which is widely believed
> > and true to large extent
> > > that
> > > > > top
> > > > > leaders of some groups
> > have compromised JKLF ideology and are
> > advancing
> > > > > agenda of secret
> > agencies of our occupiers.
> > > > >
> > > > > These JKLF leaders are accused of
> > tuning and maligning their ideology
> > > to
> > > > > suit national interest of
> > Pakistan, and have practically signed away
> > > > their
> > > > > independence to
> > advance cause of united and independent Kashmir.
> > Their
> > > > > strategy was
> > not to unite and liberate divided state of Jammu and
> > > Kashmir
> > > > > but
> > to advance such policies, which suited Pakistani agencies, aim of
> > > >
> > which
> > > > > was not independence of J and K, but to keep India bleeding
> > and
> > > engaged.
> > > > >
> > > > > That policy worked as planned India not only
> > bled but also has been
> > > > engaged
> > > > > since 1989, but in return we
> > Kashmiris have also bled and got
> > trampled
> > > > and
> > > > > oppressed. For
> > this policy people of Jammu and Kashmir had to pay
> > > through
> > > > > their
> > noses, but this struggle has made new millionaires in Jammu and
> > > > >
> > Kashmir.
> > > > >
> > > > > In this struggle which started in name of
> > independence and
> > spearheaded
> > > by
> > > > > The JKLF with money and guns
> > provided to them by Pakistani agencies
> > > > > resulted
> > > > > in fiasco. It
> > tore apart fabrics of the Kashmiri society and started
> > an
> > > > era
> > > > >
> > of intimidation, oppression and gun culture.
> > > > >
> > > > > All sides
> > targeted people of Jammu and Kashmir: They faced wrath of
> > > > Indian
> > > > >
> > Army and security
> > > > > services,
> > > > > they were trained and victimised
> > by Pakistani secret agencies and
> > worse
> > > > of
> > > > > all they were killed
> > and intimidated by militants as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > In this struggle we have
> > lost a generation. Thousands of people are
> > > still
> > > > > unaccounted for.
> > Thousands of people are still languishing in jails.
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > >
> > regrettable that we lost so many sons of soil. It is also regrettable
> > > >
> > that
> > > > > instead of bringing hope and new dreams to people of Jammu and
> >
> > Kashmir,
> > > > the
> > > > > APHC leadership and the JKLF have brought
> > disappointment, misery and
> > > > > destruction. And tragedy is that we are not
> > any closer to
> > independence.
> > > > >
> > > > > My colleagues and I realised in
> > 1991/2 that things were not in
> > control
> > > of
> > > > > JKLF Chairman,
> > Amanullah Khan, and that he was only pretending to be
> > in
> > > > > charge. We
> > challenged him and asked him to reveal who was calling
> > shots
> > > > in
> > > >
> > > name of Kashmiri struggle; and who was communalising our struggle.
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > The JKLF claimed to work for a liberal and democratic society but
> its
> >
> > > > > chairman believed in kind of democracy promoted by General Pervez
> > > >
> > Musharaf
> > > > > of Pakistan. Like Musharaf he was a dictator to the core and
> > did not
> > > > allow
> > > > > free discussion or accountability and result was
> > many splits in the
> > > JKLF.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like General Musharaf, in
> > frustration Amanullah Khan also took extra
> > > > > constitutional act and
> > dissolved most effective and powerful JKLF
> > Zone
> > > in
> > > > > Britain,
> > which led to parting of from the JKLF then onwards.
> > > > >
> > > > > We
> > continued our struggle to correct ills of the JKLF and bring
> > > > >
> > accountability and transparency within the JKLF ranks. We wanted the
> > > >
> > party
> > > > > to reflect true ideology of the JKLF, and represent all people
> > of the
> > > > state
> > > > > and not only Muslims. While this struggle was going
> > on we saw release
> > > of
> > > > > Yasin Malik from prison and hoped that he
> > would be better than
> > > Amanullah
> > > > > Khan.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are all
> > entitled to have dreams and hopes; it is the job of these
> > > > > leaders
> > >
> > > > to ensure that these dreams do not become reality. If Amanullah Khan
> >
> > is
> > > > > like
> > > > > Musharaf then surely Yasin Malik is like General Yayya
> > Khan. Both
> > > > believed
> > > > > in their own brand of democracy and human
> > rights, both dislike
> > > > > accountability and democracy within the party, in
> > fact, both dont
> > like
> > > > > party
> > > > > to flourish or expand.
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Both want to liberate the Valley or at least disrupt normal life
> >
> > there,
> > > > > especially around election time with the help of Pakistani
> > agencies;
> > > and
> > > > > both want to be Chairman for life and strongly
> > oppose dissent.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yasin Malik went in prison as a militant with
> > a gun in his hand and
> > > came
> > > > > out
> > > > > as a polished leader
> > preaching peace and non-violence, as if he was
> > not
> > > > in
> > > > > a
> > > >
> > > prison but on some academic course dealing with violence and media
> > > > >
> > management.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We hoped that the party will benefit from
> > his experience and will
> > help
> > > to
> > > > > bring some positive changes to
> > the JKLF and will help to resolve the
> > > > > Kashmir
> > > > > dispute
> > according to the expressed wishes of the people.
> > > > >
> > > > > We tried and
> > tried hard, but were not completely successful in our
> > > > > endeavours to
> > unite different groups of the JKLF and make it vibrant
> > > and
> > > > >
> > democratic force. However, our efforts helped to educate people and
> > > they
> >
> > > > > started asking questions from these two for being life chairman.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > My colleagues, especially Abbas Butt and Zubair Ansari, strongly
> > >
> > > advocated
> > > > > formation of a new party, as in their opinion it was waste
> > of time
> > > trying
> > > > > to
> > > > > correct ills of the JKLF. In their view
> > it was impossible task when
> > > Yasin
> > > > > Malik and Amanullah Khan have
> > emerged as big figures of the JKLF
> > groups
> > > > and
> > > > > when their sole
> > aim is to maintain the status quo.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was not in favour of
> > abandoning the JKLF, as I had emotional ties
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > party. Like many others, I have also given my youth and enormous time
> > > to
> >
> > > > > promote cause of the party, its aims and objectives are in my blood
> -
> >
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > > a product of our struggle. If I had given same amount of
> > time, effort
> > > and
> > > > > dedication and used my talent to promote cause of
> > another party then
> > I
> > > > > could
> > > > > have been in Parliament long time
> > ago, but that was not my objective.
> > > > >
> > > > > In our JKLF we respected
> > dissent and views of all colleagues. Even
> > > though
> > > > > majority agreed
> > with the idea of a new party, no decision was taken
> > in
> > > > its
> > > > >
> > favour because I disagreed and my colleagues respected that. Our
> > > >
> > commitment
> > > > > to each other was that we would remain together and work
> > together.
> > > > >
> > > > > We had close contacts with senior leaders of both
> > Yasin Malik and
> > > > Amanullah
> > > > > Khan led JKLF. Like us they were also
> > worried about the situation in
> > > the
> > > > > party, and what was being done
> > in the name of JKLF, but they didnt
> > have
> > > > > control over it and they
> > lacked courage and political will to
> > challenge
> > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > Last year some of them assured us that if we form another party they
> > >
> > will
> > > > > side with us, but they cannot support us if we continue with the
> > name
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > JKLF. I was still fighting my corner against
> > formation of a new
> > party.
> > > My
> > > > > view was that JKLF is not private
> > party or estate of Amanullah Khan
> > or
> > > > > Yasin
> > > > > Malik, and by us
> > abandoning the party we are giving them a free hand.
> > > > >
> > > > > But all
> > this changed last month when I met some Kashmiris from the
> > > > Valley.
> > > >
> > > They spoke against practices of the JKLF cadres in name of the
> > >
> > struggle,
> > > > > especially what they did in early years of the struggle to
> > Muslims
> > and
> > > > non
> > > > > Muslims alike.
> > > > >
> > > > > If army commit
> > human rights abuse they do it under the cover of
> > > imposing
> > > > >
> > government writ. They kill, intimidate, torture and imprison people;
> > > and
> >
> > > > in
> > > > > some cases rape women, but if the same is practised by the
> > so-called
> > > > > freedom
> > > > > fighters then what is the difference between
> > them?
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a separate topic, which needs special attention
> > and cannot be
> > > > dealt
> > > > > here. I was told that many Muslims and
> > especially non Muslims hated
> > the
> > > > > JKLF, as it is viewed as a
> > mercenary organisation advancing agenda of
> > > > > Pakistani secret agencies.
> > Muslim from the Valley said, The baggage
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > JKLF is too
> > heavy for you to carry and make any notable progress.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am, at
> > last, persuaded that it is time to say goodbye to the JKLF,
> > > > which
> > > >
> > > abandoned its ideology, communalised Kashmiri politics and advanced
> > > > >
> > non-Kashmiri agenda. Baggage and stigma of the JKLF is of course too
> > > >
> > heavy
> > > > > to carry.
> > > > >
> > > > > If some JKLF members still think they
> > can make positive contribution
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > cause of unification and
> > independence of the State when leaders like
> > > > > Amanullah Khan and Yasin
> > Malik are heading these JKLF groups then
> > good
> > > > luck
> > > > > to them;
> > however if they feel time has come to say good bye to it and
> > > > make
> > > >
> > > a
> > > > > new start then they are welcome. (ANI)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/baggage-of-jklf-is-too-heavy_10
> > 046414.html
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Rashneek Kher
> > > > >
> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > _________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > ------------------------------
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Rashneek Kher
> > > >
> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > _________________________________________
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> > > --
> > >
> > Partha Dasgupta
> > > +919811047132
> > >
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> Partha
> > Dasgupta
> +919811047132
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-- 
Partha Dasgupta
+919811047132

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