[Reader-list] Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Wed Nov 5 16:29:11 IST 2008 

Iinder,
why don't u facinate about being nude in white marble place of worship
with a green flag on top.

well do it once to prove u don't maintain double standards '

shud I help u shortlist the structure ?

Pawan
jai panun kashmir we

On 11/4/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks dear Samhoodx
>
> your response to 'nudity' was just desirable.
>
> yes, all those who have difficulty with Nudity in art should know what
> they approve for themselves in the first place.
> and how they  SEE this  MARKET of ours !!!!!
>
> and i am sure they will find numerous contradictions while holding
> 'nudity' guilty of violating societal norms.
>
> here, in particular, as a Hindu one needs to ask, which era of
> Hinduism they belong to, if one is so dying to be identified as Hindu.
>  ( for example Mr. Kshmendra, a friend on the List, does not want to
> be identified as Hindu, but a Kashmiri  pandit, and Indian,  which i
> found interesting. This is irrespective of his opinion about Nudity )
>
>   because there are many systems and many thought patterns in all this
> complexity called Hindusim, I personally, find most of its
> iconography,rich and layered, and eternally inviting the eye to enter
> its myriad  layout..... we all know Hinduism is a way of life,  an
> open ended system of thoughts, which  a Hindu believer is free to
> disown without being outside it…
>
> Unfortunately, we have modern hindu believers  ( mostly upper middle
> class )  today, who feel ashamed to see even gods in tight embrace,
> and wrap them in garments to save  their blush , or their
> short-sightedness ...
>
>
>  and those who are so proud to be identified  as Muslims , Christians
> or anything else may need to do the same questioning, because, one can
> not suddenly say this is wrong or this is right, without marking the
> territory they want be to inside.  The territory is vast, will  give
> them space to  manoeuvre, even though it is will  be limited in  the
> long run, more so, when you  proudly  Hindu believer.
>
>    we know, that the past is breathing through a given  multiple of a
> presence,  and how come we can define ' nudity' without being known to
> the self, let alone the other.   Is it the curse of modernity that
> Hindus  are so averse to the idea of ' LINGUM, and YONI as
> representative symbols of fertility, Was past much conducive to
> artists to experiment with form, their body or their  imagination, in
> comparison  to our present which is so scientific in outlook.   Here,
> it is not only India, but I guess in America,  Rajendra Bhat's
> objection might have caused my arrest by now. But, this way, some
> proud Hindu friends  look  neither fish nor fowl.
>
> Sad, that we are content with consummation of our imagination through
> TV advertisements etc. I doubt myself, perhaps they have contaminated
> my aesthetic sense as well
>
>   That also means, that as and when  we see breasts of a goddess in a
> temple,  or a woman ( mother even )
> all  we  see pornography.  alas, it was always much more  to those
> artists and saints of the past who chiselled that beauty, but, these
> self styled champions of Hinduism sit most of the time in offices and
> believe,  that just bowing their heads in front of a temple makes them
> enough Hindus.  Right now, all we have is Gujaratis who  manage/grab
> land in Delhi and make fake replicas ( clones  )  of that ancient
> glory, which is bereft of that spark of imagination and courage  to
> execute the miracle of nature through human body, and gods eventually.
>
> Even when i was in the temple, or right now, i never said, that
> nudity is the right thing to do in a temple , even when there was, or
> was not, a tradition of nudity at a given point of time. But,
> spontaneously i was fascinated, by the very idea of ruins in ancient
> Kashmir ( not a place of worship anymore ) that i wanted to be with
> the stones, wanted to speak with the silence, and be one with a space
> which has produced great scholars, great beauty  in the past.  i tried
> in my own way,  and all may do it in their own way, if they want to
> connect with a past, Nudity is one of the ways...
>
> Whose sensibilities are hurt.... is it that same  very casual look on
> the magnificence of a particular thing ( beauty ) , or one another
> indifferent look  on the  suffering homeless, starving people in
> India, and that terrible pollution, corruption and what not that
> plagues our great nation India. What pains this man who is so bothered
> with nudity.  Ah, he must be too  ashamed to see a 'nanga sadhu' while
> touring a place like Haridwar with his family.   I wonder how, will he
> see a Digambar  Jain Muni in his family if he was a Jain.  There is a
> huge past within each identity, and it is one's laziness to see it
> that only,  resulting a stifled debate, anger and fodder to
> hooliganism.
>
> The charged and thirsty self,  If includes, poetry, iconography and
> architecture, or way of living  of any religion, then the
> possibilities of making an entry into a past ( as present ), may look
> more meaningful than it is now.   'Nudity' as body without garment is
> a very shallow understanding of what even nudity means. We might feel
> naked with garments on us, and yet feel so free, and vice versa.
>
>  Dear Rajendra ji, ;
>
> please dont see anything personal in it., it was just a frank response
> to yours, as well. I am thankful to your response,  because, as human
> being, in absence of a questioning other, i feel talking to a walls
> only,  asking bluntly something gives me hope, so there is life, even
> if we contradict….
> Now just one simple question to you: if you were a citizen of Rama's
> Ayodhaya, that Valmiki's past,  and you were supposed to doubt the
> chastity of Goddess Sita, what would you do, join the masses or be
> with Goddess Sita.  Well, personally I would have abandoned Ayodhya
> the moment Goddess Sita was told to abandon the city of Rama. Perhaps,
> I identify myself more with  poet-sage Valmiki than with Lord Rama.
>
> Now, you will certainly ask, what all this has to do with nudity. The
> issue is about sexuality as well. Now, see our  great father of
> nation, Mahatma Gandhi, whom i admire for his immense contributions,
> but he was a great believer of Rama  and had problems with Khajurahao
> temples.  This is,  perhaps, he had never resolved his sexuality.  You
> are not the only one, even Gandhi ji would have objected to a nude
> performance. But  a Tagore would never. See, there is a difference,
> between Tagore and Gandhi, you and me, Lord Rama and Sita Mata.
> with love
> is
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:15 PM,  <samhoodx at aol.com> wrote:
>> correction:
>>
>> the sentence " however, nudity in temple art may or may not mean the
>> same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple
>> today" should read:
>>
>> "however, inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in a temple
>> today may or may not mean the same thing as nudity in temple art ."
>>
>> sam
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: samhoodx at aol.com
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Sent: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 8:38 am
>> Subject: Fwd: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13
>>
>> hi. you seem to have missed inder's response, just as dhatri did. so i
>> am forwarding inder's response below the quoted part of your message.
>> he says there is no tradition of nudity in islamic art, while hindu
>> deities did not have any problem with nudity. that is correct. as you
>> know, there is much nudity (and many varieties of intercourse, i might
>> add) in hindu temple art, the most famous of which is khajuraho. there
>> are many more examples of very high artistic sophistication, such as
>> konark. apart from the philosophical content of its sanskrit texts,
>> temple art and architecture are probably the most sophisticated
>> elements in its corpus. however, nudity in temple art may or may not
>> mean the same thing as inder's - or anyone else's - performed nudity in
>> a temple today. it would be good to have a discussion on what it may or
>> may not mean, and why.
>>
>>
>> sam
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: rajendra bhat <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>> ... you have not bothered to reply as to why you were not civilised at
>> martand temple parading and photographed in nude, but the same culture
>> was absent at mosque, say at hajarathbal.?
>>
>>
>> Nudity does not affect any of us as we are all products of nude coitus,
>> of parents, but in civil society every civil act has a place, dining
>> hall for dinner, coitus in bedroom, so if your culture is not to be
>> civil, but only cultured, then have your culture same in all the places
>> of worship.!
>>
>>
>> Lot more love.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>>> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>
>>>> Displacement from Kashmir
>>
>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> well, dear pawan
>>
>>>> how a North indian ( like you) can join Raj's Jai Mahrashtra slogan,
>>
>>>> it is beyond my comprehension.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> why mosque comes to your mind as and when you talk about Temple. how
>>
>>>> is your subconscious working, you might find an answer.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> how my nidity hits you below the belt, i dont understand. Hindu
>>
>>>> gods were always confortable with that. it is necessary, to say
>>
>>>> Female, as and when we say Male, Nudity is not always happening
>>
>>>> against the factor called ' garment' . it has some innocene involved
>>
>>>> int it, for example when we were born. there is no reference of any
>>
>>>> past which has nudity as part of mosque culture. so wherefrom this
>>
>>>> question?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> well, i have my own understanding of violence, and i believe our
>>
>>>> intolerance towards the other is the core reason.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> we all are victims at one point or the other, but how to join
>>
>>>> mobocracy is beyond my understanding of discourses on any subject.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> i am talking to you becasue you are in discourse on the List,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> and the moment you will throw stones on others, you will become a
>>
>>>> petty instrument of those who work from above and motivate the
>> workers
>>
>>>> to act, the paid or unintelligent activits.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> you need to know that you are using words, like we, which are
>> ambigous
>>
>>>> most of times, and so there is always scope for humour, wit, and
>>
>>>> profoundity at the same time.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> lot of love
>>
>>>> and regards
>>
>>>> is
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> p.s. if you are still angry with me, please wrtie back to me outside
>>
>>>> the list, i will be happy to respond back, we can spare others from
>>
>>>> all this
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Pawan Durani
>> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> > IInder,
>>
>>>> >
>>
>>>> > till date i have not got a reply ohn when you would get yourslef
>>
>>>> > photographed in the Mosque premesis like you got one done in
>> Martand
>>
>>>> Temple.
>>
>>>> >
>>
>>>> > Pawan
>>
>>>> >
>>
>>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
subscribe
> in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

More information about the reader-list mailing list