[Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse...

Sun Nov 9 20:41:36 IST 2008

Dear Gowhar Fazili

The 'theatre of false propaganda' is something I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in 'aside' seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of information. In this case your 'filthy lie' of:

 """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row."""""""

(5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2)

A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy lie' wherever it might be placed and whosoever might be it's author, whether in a factual representation or in a fictional one.

If you are not the protagonist "HE" in your conversation piece then you should not be miffed about any comments directed at "HIM".

Incidentally the word "moron" to describe someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) is a word that I have not introduced into this List to describe someone like you. 

If it is you who is the "HE" in your conversation piece then for sure you are a "moron' and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of what you call 'abuse'. 

You whine that I should have placed 'counter figures' of what you think would be "a dozen more or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine considering the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) realistic 'death count' and the 'figures' suggested by you by extrapolating your 'daily death count of 2 to 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. There, one more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot.

If the "Amarnath Land Row" started sometime in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since it started. Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to 5',  the 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. Do you see what an 'idiot' you are?

In this particular case let me distort the application of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The "Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the
burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies)" In this case your assertion of  """""" The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land row."""""""

Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to place me into a compartment for which you have the identifying construct of "abused as a child"; "severe mental imbalance"; "(needing) psychological help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as to hate"; "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for abuse".

This is one more 'theatrical device' in the 'theatre of false propaganda'. If questioned about "filthy lies" for which you have no justifiable, credible and believable response you attack the questioner and attribute such characteristics to him/her that will demonise him/her so as to be viewed with suspicion and shift focus from your own 'filthy lie'. 

All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me can only serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not excuse your "filthy lie"

Kshmendra

--- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to spitting and verbal Abuse...
To: "reader-list at sarai.net" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM

'Filty Liar', 'Moron'...  Kshmendra's use of this language
against me on the readers list suggests he might have been abused as a child. 
If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being abused as a child can create severe
mental imbalances and over reactions among people. It might be high time for
people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help because it has bearing on his
quality of life and of those around him.

He may dispute the figures quoted by the 'HE' in the dialogue I
posted... in which case he could have placed his counter figures (say a couple
of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently asked for the source....There  was
absolutely no need for him to get abusive.

The other more profound explanation could be that it forms part of his
socialisation and culture.  Brahmin's have long held it to be their right to
abuse those whom they consider impure and inferior.  So in this light, cases
like spitting on someone whom you do not like or calling somebody a 'filthy
liar' or a 'moron'  might be an attempt to reclaim that right and
culture against the current community they hate, or to use a turn of phrase,
want to Dalitize...  Muslims appear to be the current objects of hate and insult
and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most assertive among them, they happen to
be the special targets of abuse.

The dialogue i had posted was not about exact statistics of the dead, but two
perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers, that the democratic exercise
was worthwhile in all circumstances for the collective good... His, that the
basic conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to engender such a
collectivity have been systematically removed Kashmir.

Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on this?

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A filthy lie by Gowhar Fazli.
> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" <reader-list at sarai.net>,
gowharfazili at yahoo.com
> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM
> Dear Gowhar Fazli
>  
> The protagonist "HE" in the conversation you have
> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are the
> "HE" then you are a filthy liar.
>  
> I refer to the statement:
>  
>  """""" The valley has seen
> two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath land
> row."""""""
>  
> It is true that 'innocents' have died in the
> 'valley' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I
> consider any such death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable
> for a civilized society. I consider even the deaths of
> those who have consciously chosen the path of violence to
> further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate, regretable
> and avoidable.   
>  
> But that does not mean that 'morons' like
> you should have the licence to float blatant lies on this
> List or any other place, perhaps with the smug
> thought that you will not be questioned.  
>  
> Do you want to contest my declaring you a 'filthy
> liar'?
>  
>  I invite you to evidence the statement of 2 to 5 deaths
> daily in the 'valley' since the start of the
> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any credible news source
> of your choice. A credible  news source would for sure have
> a presence on the Web where your statement can be confirmed
> as being 'truthful' or as being a 'filthy
> lie' as I have called it. 
>  
> Kshmendra
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah!
> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM
> 
> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!!  (Commenting on my
> status of OBAH MUAH!)
> 
> HE: :)
> 
> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and bollywud magic
> that day on tv
> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and kisses....wah!!!
> 
> HE: and compare the two elections... one in Kashmir n one
> in US!
> 
> SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look at the
> conduct of political
> parties in jk, the language and hate for each other....more
> to blame is also
> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream India......in fact in
> south Asia, the
> polity is mired with corruption, vote bank and slur....we
> still have to grow as
> a democracy...remember we are only 60..as compared to US
> 200. As far as Kashmir
> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly they blame
> the Indian govt of
> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young woman
> contesting from
> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is receiving... what
> does the Hurriyat want
> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them who have used
> and subverted
> democratic institutions for their own interest. U know the
> major draw back in
> our part of the world is that we do not have the courage
> for self correctness,
> self introspection.....USA did that....they have brought in
> change...I admire
> that...
> baithey gen tou baat kargengen....
> 
> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I agree in part
> with yours
>  
> SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir
> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call for Jamia
> Chalo for killing of 5
> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947.....
> 
> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people protested in Kashmir
> for Azadi and were
> forced indoors by shooting on the protests... Kashmir is in
> no mood for election
> right now... yet it has to be imposed... without any
> negotiation with the
> leadership opposed to it. All that the government can offer
> is to impose a
> conventional election to meet its deadline to show that all
> is well in Kashmir.
> It is not.
>   I think the bigger problem is this not the morality of
> our local politicians.
> the conditions we live in can only produce the kind of
> politicians we presently
> have.
>  USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for eight years
> before it was time for
> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides how Kashmiris
> should behave and who
> should be in power.
> Kashmiri leadership has to suite India’s self-image its
> foreign policy and
> morality.
> 
> SHE:  you forget that people who are standing for elections
> ( record number
> filled in nomination...to counter each other , their party
> workers shouting anti
> India slogans )  or people wanting to vote are also
> Kashmiris. Even Panun
> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for different
> reasons. They are
> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want to vote are
> Kashmiris too...so are
> the Sikhs and not to forget there are Ladhakis , Poocnhis,
> etc who want to
> vote...no one is shying away from resolving the
> issue...spell out the  agenda
> and ideology and let people decide, why intimidate them,
> kill them...why instill
> so much hatred in them...and when I say they..I mean all
> those, religious
> groups, media, separatist so called nationalist.... who
> want to build their own
> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or anywhere
> else...as I said we need to
> sit and talk....chatting on these issues is bit
> difficult...
> 
> 
> HE: I didn’t forget them... Ladakhis, Pandits,
> Jammu-ites, and all those who
> want to vote for various reasons...  Yet  daily killing to
> keep people to keep
> them from demonstrating for Azadi or protesting against
> elections (peacefully I
> do not see pelting stones at heavily armed security forces
> from by lanes as
> serious violence especially when you are permanently held
> under section 144)
> cannot be justified because some people there or elsewhere
> want to vote.  The
> context in which elections are happening is pure
> imposition... more of what has
> been happening all along.  
>  Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling out agendas
> is not possible and
> largely the establishment which wields power in Kashmir is
> responsible for
> maintaining such a situation there.    There is too much
> intelligence
> interference... too much security structure to allow people
> to breathe... let
> alone have a Democratic process.  Too much of humiliation
> on the daily basis to
> let a person feel human enough...   Even those who were
> alienated from religion
> or primordial identities are being pushed to adopt these
> for bare survival.  In
> wake of this the only articulation that is possible is hate
> or violence.  You
> cannot sit on someone’s throat and ask him/her to talk
> peace.  They might
> oblige until you get off... but then hate you with all the
> intensity they can
> muster soon after that.
>  I think the situation is like this... We have beaten
> Kashmiris to the point of
> making them into brutes... and now we justify the
> continuity of violence by
> saying look they are actually brutes and deserve it!
>  Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir since late
> nineties should have
> given a breather to India to bring about a serious
> dialogue.  But what do they
> do? Decide that the temporary lull is the solution and
> squander the chance. 
>  We cannot maintain the facade of moral preachers after all
> that has happened
> in Kashmir.  We must bow our heads in shame and let the
> people have their say. 
> Even though what they decide might not be to our liking and
> in our opinion
> disastrous for them.   Too often our personal interests get
> enmeshed with our
> moral visions and cloud our judgment such that we cannot
> see what is actually
> happening to people.  
> At least I for one have stopped passing judgments on the
> people of Kashmir and
> demonizing them.  I hope more of the civil society
> activists who engage with
> Kashmir will begin to do so.
> 
> When you refer to intimidation and killing i am surprised
> that you miss out the
> biggest killing machine in motion right now... the CRPF! 
> You see we percieve
> different realities because of where each of us is located.
>  The valley has seen
> two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath
> land row.  This seems to
> be the current policy.  CRPF is communalised.  I have my
> batchmates within the
> force and they give horrifying accounts of how the force
> percieves ordinary
> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or humiliated for
> no reason but for
> what they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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