[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

Sun Nov 9 23:31:49 IST 2008

i believe, majority opinion on the list would like them ( aditya ji
and pawan ji, chanchal ji, radhikarajan and few others like that  )
to just read the mails and not reflect back, but that is unlikely. so
it looks reasonable to delete their names.

Having said that, i dont give special marks to myself to reflect on
each and every post as and when they appears on the List, but as i
look back, most of my reflections happened because of theirs.....

so

best
is

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Danish Husain <dan.ayyaar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Shuddha: a
>
> I think you've been very lenient by leaving out few other illustrious people
> who've been libellous and have been defaming many at free will on this list.
> Please expel them immediately because it's been painful to delete trash from
> my inbox everyday. I am sure there are many forums who'd willingly embrace
> our chest-baring jingoists. And anyway why should they waste time with few
> paid commies and foreign stooges. I guess expulsion would save them lot of
> heartburns and they can apply their energies more fervently on forums where
> people would worship them for taking up their cause. We here are all for
> freedom of words but not for freedom of spitting.
>
> And lastly, I resisted but I can't help saying it that the "chinese
> ideology" you ferreted out, let alone knowing them they can't even spell
> half of them.
>
> Thanks for speaking out on behalf of the tormented membership of this list.
>
> Warmly,
>
> D
>
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our
>> list, and am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>> Unfortunately it is not without precedent.
>>
>> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and
>> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with
>> detailed and cross referenced material that does not support their
>> 'case', habitually retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They
>> express their desires to 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their
>> ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon allies spit on the faces of university
>> lecturers invited to speak at the university.
>>
>> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this
>> list, and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>> associated with 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>>
>>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>> insinuations emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late
>> from Aditya Raj Kaul) that suggest that whosoever does not agree with
>> the PK/RIK gospel or the broad hardline Indian nationalist position
>> on anything must be doing so because they are actively doing the
>> bidding of their 'foreign masters' and further, because they are
>> being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical horizons are severely
>> limited and compromised, the makers of these accusations cannot
>> imagine that some of us take a principled position against the things
>> that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account for the ethical
>> basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being adversarial
>> purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So, 'writers' and
>> journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent,
>> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made
>> when the debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay
>> Kak's propoganda agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>>
>> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are
>> being paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
>> their local clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of
>> the foreign hand' theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal
>> weapon) that Indian politicians (and not only Indian politicians)
>> resort to when all else fails. It is the true hallmark of a failure
>> of reason, a profound disconnect with reality and dismal poverty of
>> the political imagination. It attempts to hide but fails to conceal a
>> rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>>
>> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on
>> to the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani
>> keeps, such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots
>> in Kashmir' luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money'
>> to write for their cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is
>> the only one that these gentlemen understand, because at least in
>> this case, they seem to be doing precisely what (offering a bribe)
>> that they accuse us of being beholden to. Rather, this is a case of
>> one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the fact that they lament
>> not having their current adversaries as their own 'paid agents'. Why
>> else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree with them a
>> 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>>
>> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when
>> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line
>> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has
>> been accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
>> accused of taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been
>> two specific occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have
>> been called 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>>
>> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this
>> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually
>> either.
>>
>> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what
>> we are writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or
>> 'terrorist' is greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list,
>> I am willing to take on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the
>> fact that my bank accounts suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know
>> that Pawan Durani should think that my political convictions and
>> reflections are available for purchase at such low rates in the
>> market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack who writes not
>> out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and leavings from my
>> 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is
>> paid by the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write
>> anything. No payments are sought from the hosts or administrator for
>> any kind of writing either. My professional responsibilities at Sarai
>> do not include writing on the Reader List either.
>>
>> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the
>> Sarai programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>> professional standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it
>> lightly, especially as this has been made on a very public forum. I
>> may have been willing to ignore the odd barb of this nature (and it
>> is not that it has not been thrown in the past) but when we get seven
>> defamatory missives in two weeks, then we are looking at a serious
>> and determined pattern that I do not think deserves to be ignored or
>> overlooked.
>>
>> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote
>> with the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
>> taken, so that they can be traced easily by all list members. My
>> comments follow each quotation. Certain portions within each
>> quotation have been capitalized for reasons of emphasis (mine).
>>
>> --------------------------
>> 1.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Pawan Durani)
>>
>> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>> COUNTRY , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who
>> created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter ,
>> Parlaiment case are being followed more closely.
>>
>> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links
>> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out
>> soon..."
>>
>> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the
>> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed
>> by a foreign country'
>> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
>> ascertained'
>> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>>
>> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of
>> how he can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c)
>> above, or stand charged of making baseless allegations designed to
>> malign the character and reputation of people in a public forum.
>>
>> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know
>> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to
>> count as sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>>
>> 2.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Pawan Durani)
>>
>> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME
>> JOB FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>>
>> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither
>> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List
>> on any subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
>> want to know what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on
>> the Reader List is a 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if
>> he cannot substantiate this, it will amount to defamation because it
>> will imply that I say what I do, or have the political convictions
>> that I have because I am paid for this. In other words, that I am a
>> 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this charge, I would again
>> like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list, or allowed
>> to continue to make allegations without basis?
>>
>> 3.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> from Kashmir
>> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Pawan Durani)
>>
>> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,
>> UNLIKE SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>> support their
>> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>>
>> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from
>> reading this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid
>> job' (again because this is addressed to me). Once again, the
>> questions I have asked immediately before this still hold.
>>
>> 4.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> from Kashmir
>> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Pawan Durani)
>>
>> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and
>> also IT IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>>
>> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the
>> way he does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>>
>> 5.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> from Kashmir
>> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Pawan Durani)
>>
>> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and
>> we would continue to counter their agenda..."
>>
>> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me
>> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a
>> list of my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is
>> making here that I write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If
>> he does not have this proof, then again, I am constrained to ask
>> whether or not he should be expelled from the list for reasons of
>> defamation.
>>
>> 6.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> persons' status
>> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Pawan Durani)
>>
>> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I
>> mean."
>>
>> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with
>> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
>> "Chinese ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>> Kuomintang Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
>> preference for Chinese cuisine?
>>
>> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>> referring to a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
>> specifically those in positions of power within the Chinese Communist
>> Party and the government of the Peoples Republic of China.
>>
>> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he
>> would identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>> critics of Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and
>> the government of the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have
>> in fact gone on record to point out the similarities between the way
>> in which the government of mainland China deals with Tibet, and the
>> way in which the Government of India deals with the occupation that
>> it undertakes in Kashmir.
>>
>> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless.
>>
>> 7.
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> persons' status
>> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>>
>> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>
>> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS
>> TONE..."
>>
>> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation
>> that anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act
>> at the behest of their masters.
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>>
>> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>
>> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>>
>> MY COMMENT: None
>> __________________________
>>
>> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from
>> the date and time of this posting) to furnish detailed,
>> substantiatable proof for what I consider to be the allegations in
>> their defamatory and scurrilous postings aimed at me and others on
>> this list.
>>
>> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or,
>> if the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated
>> and inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
>> the list administrator that both of them be expelled from this list
>> with immediate effect.
>>
>> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in
>> favour of freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last
>> year and a half) the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and
>> their allies (in serious offline discussions) to continue to torment
>> this list with their rubbish time and time again when demands have
>> been made for his expulsion on grounds of 'hate speech'. I am willing
>> to go the extra mile to give the benefit of the doubt when someone
>> stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I do not agree with
>> them, because I think that even things said in anger need a hearing.
>> And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj Kaul
>> and their allies.
>>
>> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that
>> they can do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>> conjecture. Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered
>> by arguments and better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack
>> peoples personal lives and conduct, especially when they are uttered
>> on public fora, spread poison if they are not dealt with exemplary
>> and immediate severity. There have to be consequences for such
>> conduct, no matter who does it.
>>
>> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a
>> foreign power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I
>> am, or I am not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to
>> above suggests that I am, and several others on the list are. And
>> since this is a statement about concrete people, not about some
>> abstractions . then the only way to settle this is to demand that the
>> person or persons making the allegation proves what they say, or
>> faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The reason I am
>> saying this is because there actually are very serious consequences
>> to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power' in this
>> country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such
>> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>>
>> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel
>> and cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on
>> the grounds of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying
>> itself and the reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license
>> to defame a person or persons with the freedom of expression.
>>
>> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>>
>>
>>
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