[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

[Aarti Sethi]

Dear Pawan,

Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off? Please
include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date and
time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring to
their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used strong
language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support right-wing
Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to
*prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According to
you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I write,
as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has
recourse to *facts* in this case.

This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our
writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new
terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a
matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence that,
unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against
people, I am far more circumspect about what I write.

So please, tell me where I have said this about you.

regards
Aarti

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed. The
> freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>
> How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me , Aditya
> ,
> roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>
> His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing but
> figment of his own imagination.
>
> If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder , Shivam
> and Arti have to be.
>
> Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>
> Pawan
>
>
>
> On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> >
> >  Dear All,
> >
> >
> > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list,
> and
> > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too. Unfortunately
> it
> > is not without precedent.
> >
> >
> > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and
> > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with
> detailed
> > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case',
> habitually
> > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their desires
> to
> > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon
> allies
> > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the
> > university.
> >
> >
> > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this list,
> > and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated
> with
> > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
> >
> >
> >  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of insinuations
> > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj
> Kaul)
> > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or the
> > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so
> > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters'
> and
> > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical
> > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these
> > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position
> > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account
> for
> > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being
> > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So,
> 'writers'
> > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent,
> > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when
> the
> > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
> propoganda
> > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
> >
> >
> > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are being
> > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their local
> > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign hand'
> > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
> politicians
> > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is
> the
> > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with reality
> and
> > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but
> fails
> > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
> >
> >
> > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on to
> > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani keeps,
> > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in Kashmir'
> > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for
> their
> > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that these
> > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be
> doing
> > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden
> to.
> > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to the
> > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own
> > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't agree
> > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
> >
> >
> > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when
> > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line
> > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has
> been
> > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of
> > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific
> > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called
> > 'puppets of the Chinese'.
> >
> >
> > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this
> > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually
> > either.
> >
> >
> > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we
> are
> > writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is
> > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to
> take
> > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank accounts
> > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think
> that
> > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at
> such
> > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack
> who
> > writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and leavings
> from
> > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is paid
> by
> > the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No
> payments
> > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing
> either.
> > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the
> > Reader List either.
> >
> >
> > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the
> Sarai
> > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
> professional
> > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially as
> > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to
> ignore
> > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown in
> > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then we
> > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think
> deserves
> > to be ignored or overlooked.
> >
> >
> > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote with
> > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken, so
> > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow
> each
> > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized
> for
> > reasons of emphasis (mine).
> >
> >
> > --------------------------
> >
> > 1.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> >
> > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Pawan Durani)
> >
> >
> > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY
> ,
> > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
> > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are
> > being followed more closely.
> >
> >
> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links
> >
> > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out
> > soon..."
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
> >
> > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the
> > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by a
> > foreign country'
> >
> > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
> > ascertained'
> >
> > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
> >
> >
> > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how he
> > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or stand
> > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character
> and
> > reputation of people in a public forum.
> >
> >
> > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know
> > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count as
> > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
> >
> >
> > 2.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> >
> > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Pawan Durani)
> >
> >
> > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME JOB
> > FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither
> > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List on
> any
> > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to
> know
> > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List
> is a
> > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate
> this,
> > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I do,
> or
> > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this. In
> > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this
> charge,
> > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list,
> or
> > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
> >
> >
> > 3.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from
> > Kashmir
> >
> > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Pawan Durani)
> >
> >
> > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,
> UNLIKE
> > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support
> their
> >
> > cause by trying to create an opinion..."
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from
> reading
> > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again because
> > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
> immediately
> > before this still hold.
> >
> >
> > 4.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from
> > Kashmir
> >
> > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Pawan Durani)
> >
> >
> > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and also
> IT
> > IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the way
> he
> > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
> >
> >
> > 5.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement from
> > Kashmir
> >
> > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Pawan Durani)
> >
> >
> > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we
> > would continue to counter their agenda..."
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me
> > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a list
> of
> > my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here that
> I
> > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this
> > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be
> > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
> >
> >
> > 6.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons'
> > status
> >
> > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Pawan Durani)
> >
> >
> > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I
> mean."
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with
> > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
> "Chinese
> > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang
> > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for
> > Chinese cuisine?
> >
> >
> > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is referring
> to
> > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically
> those
> > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
> government
> > of the Peoples Republic of China.
> >
> >
> > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he would
> > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics of
> > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government of
> > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on
> record
> > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government of
> > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of
> > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
> >
> >
> > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless.
> >
> >
> > 7.
> >
> >
> > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced persons'
> > status
> >
> > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
> >
> >
> > (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
> >
> >
> > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS
> > TONE..."
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation that
> > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the
> > behest of their masters.
> >
> >
> > -----------------
> >
> >
> >  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
> >
> > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
> >
> >
> > (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
> >
> >
> > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
> >
> >
> > MY COMMENT: None
> >
> > __________________________
> >
> >
> > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the
> date
> > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof for
> > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and scurrilous
> > postings aimed at me and others on this list.
> >
> >
> > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or, if
> > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and
> > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the list
> > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with immediate
> > effect.
> >
> >
> > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in favour
> of
> > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a
> half)
> > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in
> serious
> > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their rubbish
> > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on
> grounds
> > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit
> of
> > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when I
> do
> > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger need
> a
> > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj
> Kaul
> > and their allies.
> >
> >
> > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they
> can
> > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or conjecture.
> > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments
> and
> > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal
> lives
> > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread
> poison
> > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have
> to
> > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
> >
> >
> > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a foreign
> > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I am
> > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests
> that I
> > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement
> about
> > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to
> settle
> > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation proves
> > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The
> > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious
> > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power'
> in
> > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such
> > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
> >
> >
> > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and
> > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the
> grounds
> > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the
> > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a person
> or
> > persons with the freedom of expression.
> >
> >
> > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal.
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> >
> > Shuddha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>