[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

[Kirdar]

Dear Pawan
If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.

No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" -
but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy
about the plight of KPs.

You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
is ticking.

Kirdar


On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Kirdar,
>
> I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come from .
>
> 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of
> separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he
> considers himself one.
>
> 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on Geelani
> and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write that
> the credentials of certain people on the list are being investigated.What
> makes the two different ?
>
> 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain
> organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in all
> countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co
> -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and non
> except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
>
> 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just
> everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone
> .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this list
> as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate .....
> Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see himself
> as a surrogate with active participation.....
>
> 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena , Panun
> Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong with
> that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations. However i
> have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the
> founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member as we
> believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise. But
> i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of these.
> These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all odds.
>
> Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
> organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits world
> across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle the
> voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
>
> And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese
> ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it
> effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a
> supporter of that ?
>
> I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is to
> scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has undergone
> Exodus and genocide.
>
> I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I myself
> run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and what
> not to word.
>
> If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge a
> moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and
> others be removed.
>
> I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so they do
> know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
>
> I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
>
> Regards
>
> Pawan Durani
>
> jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Pawan
>> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
>> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign
>> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such
>> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think
>> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that
>> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are
>> gone.
>>
>> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
>> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
>> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please
>> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you
>> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe
>> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
>> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
>>
>> Kirdar
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear All,
>> >
>> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed.
>> > The
>> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>> >
>> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me ,
>> > Aditya ,
>> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>> >
>> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing
>> > but
>> > figment of his own imagination.
>> >
>> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder ,
>> > Shivam
>> > and Arti have to be.
>> >
>> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>> >
>> > Pawan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Dear All,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our list,
>> >> and
>> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>> >> Unfortunately it
>> >> is not without precedent.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and
>> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with
>> >> detailed
>> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case',
>> >> habitually
>> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
>> >> desires to
>> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon
>> >> allies
>> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the
>> >> university.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this
>> >> list,
>> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated
>> >> with
>> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>> >> insinuations
>> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj
>> >> Kaul)
>> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or
>> >> the
>> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing so
>> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters'
>> >> and
>> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical
>> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these
>> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position
>> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to account
>> >> for
>> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being
>> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So,
>> >> 'writers'
>> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid agent,
>> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made when
>> >> the
>> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>> >> propoganda
>> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are
>> >> being
>> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their
>> >> local
>> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign
>> >> hand'
>> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
>> >> politicians
>> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is
>> >> the
>> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
>> >> reality and
>> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but
>> >> fails
>> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on
>> >> to
>> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani
>> >> keeps,
>> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>> >> Kashmir'
>> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for
>> >> their
>> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that
>> >> these
>> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be
>> >> doing
>> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being beholden
>> >> to.
>> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to
>> >> the
>> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their own
>> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't
>> >> agree
>> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when
>> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line
>> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has
>> >> been
>> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused of
>> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific
>> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called
>> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this
>> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually
>> >> either.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what we
>> >> are
>> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is
>> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to
>> >> take
>> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
>> >> accounts
>> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should think
>> >> that
>> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at
>> >> such
>> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired hack
>> >> who
>> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and leavings
>> >> from
>> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is
>> >> paid by
>> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No
>> >> payments
>> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing
>> >> either.
>> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on the
>> >> Reader List either.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the
>> >> Sarai
>> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>> >> professional
>> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially
>> >> as
>> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to
>> >> ignore
>> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown
>> >> in
>> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then
>> >> we
>> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think
>> >> deserves
>> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote
>> >> with
>> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken,
>> >> so
>> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow
>> >> each
>> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been capitalized
>> >> for
>> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------
>> >>
>> >> 1.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >>
>> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>> >> COUNTRY ,
>> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case
>> >> are
>> >> being followed more closely.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links
>> >>
>> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out
>> >> soon..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>> >>
>> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the
>> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed by
>> >> a
>> >> foreign country'
>> >>
>> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
>> >> ascertained'
>> >>
>> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how
>> >> he
>> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or
>> >> stand
>> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the character
>> >> and
>> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know
>> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count
>> >> as
>> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >>
>> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME
>> >> JOB
>> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither
>> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List
>> >> on any
>> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to
>> >> know
>> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader List
>> >> is a
>> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate
>> >> this,
>> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I
>> >> do, or
>> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this.
>> >> In
>> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this
>> >> charge,
>> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this list,
>> >> or
>> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> >> from
>> >> Kashmir
>> >>
>> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,
>> >> UNLIKE
>> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support
>> >> their
>> >>
>> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from
>> >> reading
>> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
>> >> because
>> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
>> >> immediately
>> >> before this still hold.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 4.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> >> from
>> >> Kashmir
>> >>
>> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and
>> >> also IT
>> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the
>> >> way he
>> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 5.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> >> from
>> >> Kashmir
>> >>
>> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we
>> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me
>> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a
>> >> list of
>> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here
>> >> that I
>> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have this
>> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be
>> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 6.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> >> persons'
>> >> status
>> >>
>> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I
>> >> mean."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with
>> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
>> >> "Chinese
>> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang
>> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for
>> >> Chinese cuisine?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>> >> referring to
>> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically
>> >> those
>> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
>> >> government
>> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he
>> >> would
>> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics
>> >> of
>> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government
>> >> of
>> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on
>> >> record
>> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the government
>> >> of
>> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government of
>> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 7.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> >> persons'
>> >> status
>> >>
>> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS
>> >> TONE..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation
>> >> that
>> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at the
>> >> behest of their masters.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>> >>
>> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> MY COMMENT: None
>> >>
>> >> __________________________
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the
>> >> date
>> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof
>> >> for
>> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>> >> scurrilous
>> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or,
>> >> if
>> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and
>> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the
>> >> list
>> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>> >> immediate
>> >> effect.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in
>> >> favour of
>> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a
>> >> half)
>> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in
>> >> serious
>> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
>> >> rubbish
>> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on
>> >> grounds
>> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the benefit
>> >> of
>> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when
>> >> I do
>> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger
>> >> need a
>> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj
>> >> Kaul
>> >> and their allies.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that they
>> >> can
>> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>> >> conjecture.
>> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments
>> >> and
>> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal
>> >> lives
>> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread
>> >> poison
>> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There have
>> >> to
>> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a
>> >> foreign
>> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I
>> >> am
>> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests
>> >> that I
>> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement
>> >> about
>> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to
>> >> settle
>> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation
>> >> proves
>> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The
>> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious
>> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign power'
>> >> in
>> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such
>> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel and
>> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the
>> >> grounds
>> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the
>> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a
>> >> person or
>> >> persons with the freedom of expression.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> regards
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Shuddha
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> > _________________________________________
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>
>