[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

[Pawan Durani]

Lastly,

My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology which
I can understand.

The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a
right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any member.
So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ]

Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.

If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the
judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double
the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my
ideology.

So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand
that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in
either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i am
really a hurdle.

But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.

regards

Pawan Durani




On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Kirdar,
>
> What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes him
> think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
>
> To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this
> group.
>
> Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
>
> I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
>
> And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
> exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have one.
>
> Pawan
>
>
>  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Pawan
>> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
>> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
>> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
>> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
>> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
>> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
>>
>> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
>> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" -
>> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
>> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
>> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
>> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
>> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
>> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy
>> about the plight of KPs.
>>
>> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
>> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
>> is ticking.
>>
>> Kirdar
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear Kirdar,
>> >
>> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come
>> from .
>> >
>> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters of
>> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless he
>> > considers himself one.
>> >
>> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
>> Geelani
>> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write
>> that
>> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
>> investigated.What
>> > makes the two different ?
>> >
>> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of certain
>> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens in
>> all
>> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he co
>> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and
>> non
>> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
>> >
>> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates just
>> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone
>> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on this
>> list
>> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate
>> .....
>> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
>> himself
>> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
>> >
>> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena ,
>> Panun
>> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything wrong
>> with
>> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
>> However i
>> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of the
>> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its member
>> as we
>> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for advise.
>> But
>> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of
>> these.
>> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all
>> odds.
>> >
>> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
>> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri pandits
>> world
>> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to scuttle
>> the
>> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
>> >
>> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with Chinese
>> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does it
>> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a
>> > supporter of that ?
>> >
>> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom is
>> to
>> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
>> undergone
>> > Exodus and genocide.
>> >
>> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I
>> myself
>> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and
>> what
>> > not to word.
>> >
>> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not challenge
>> a
>> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha and
>> > others be removed.
>> >
>> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so
>> they do
>> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
>> >
>> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Pawan Durani
>> >
>> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear Pawan
>> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
>> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of foreign
>> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support such
>> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I think
>> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half that
>> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are
>> >> gone.
>> >>
>> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
>> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
>> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please
>> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you
>> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list. Maybe
>> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
>> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
>> >>
>> >> Kirdar
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Dear All,
>> >> >
>> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
>> exposed.
>> >> > The
>> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>> >> >
>> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me ,
>> >> > Aditya ,
>> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
>> nothing
>> >> > but
>> >> > figment of his own imagination.
>> >> >
>> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder ,
>> >> > Shivam
>> >> > and Arti have to be.
>> >> >
>> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>> >> >
>> >> > Pawan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  Dear All,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our
>> list,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>> >> >> Unfortunately it
>> >> >> is not without precedent.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir'
>> and
>> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with
>> >> >> detailed
>> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case',
>> >> >> habitually
>> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
>> >> >> desires to
>> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon
>> >> >> allies
>> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the
>> >> >> university.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this
>> >> >> list,
>> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>> associated
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>> >> >> insinuations
>> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj
>> >> >> Kaul)
>> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing
>> so
>> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
>> masters'
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical
>> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these
>> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
>> position
>> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
>> account
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being
>> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So,
>> >> >> 'writers'
>> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid
>> agent,
>> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made
>> when
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>> >> >> propoganda
>> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are
>> >> >> being
>> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their
>> >> >> local
>> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign
>> >> >> hand'
>> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
>> >> >> politicians
>> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It
>> is
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
>> >> >> reality and
>> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but
>> >> >> fails
>> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar
>> on
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani
>> >> >> keeps,
>> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>> >> >> Kashmir'
>> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write
>> for
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that
>> >> >> these
>> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be
>> >> >> doing
>> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>> beholden
>> >> >> to.
>> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting
>> to
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their
>> own
>> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't
>> >> >> agree
>> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions
>> when
>> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard
>> line
>> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti
>> has
>> >> >> been
>> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused
>> of
>> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific
>> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called
>> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take
>> this
>> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually
>> >> >> either.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what
>> we
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is
>> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing
>> to
>> >> >> take
>> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
>> >> >> accounts
>> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should
>> think
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase
>> at
>> >> >> such
>> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired
>> hack
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
>> leavings
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is
>> >> >> paid by
>> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No
>> >> >> payments
>> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing
>> >> >> either.
>> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on
>> the
>> >> >> Reader List either.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to
>> the
>> >> >> Sarai
>> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>> >> >> professional
>> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
>> especially
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing
>> to
>> >> >> ignore
>> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
>> thrown
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks,
>> then
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think
>> >> >> deserves
>> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
>> taken,
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
>> follow
>> >> >> each
>> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>> capitalized
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>> >> >> COUNTRY ,
>> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment
>> case
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> being followed more closely.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their
>> links
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out
>> >> >> soon..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the
>> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed
>> by
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> foreign country'
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
>> >> >> ascertained'
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of
>> how
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or
>> >> >> stand
>> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>> character
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to
>> know
>> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to
>> count
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME
>> >> >> JOB
>> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither
>> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader
>> List
>> >> >> on any
>> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want
>> to
>> >> >> know
>> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader
>> List
>> >> >> is a
>> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
>> substantiate
>> >> >> this,
>> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I
>> >> >> do, or
>> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for
>> this.
>> >> >> In
>> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this
>> >> >> charge,
>> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this
>> list,
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> Kashmir
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,
>> >> >> UNLIKE
>> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>> support
>> >> >> their
>> >> >>
>> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from
>> >> >> reading
>> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
>> >> >> because
>> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
>> >> >> immediately
>> >> >> before this still hold.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 4.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> Kashmir
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and
>> >> >> also IT
>> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the
>> >> >> way he
>> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 5.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> Kashmir
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and
>> we
>> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me
>> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a
>> >> >> list of
>> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here
>> >> >> that I
>> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have
>> this
>> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should
>> be
>> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 6.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> >> >> persons'
>> >> >> status
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I
>> >> >> mean."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with
>> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
>> >> >> "Chinese
>> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>> Kuomintang
>> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference
>> for
>> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>> >> >> referring to
>> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
>> specifically
>> >> >> those
>> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
>> >> >> government
>> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>> critics
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
>> government
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on
>> >> >> record
>> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
>> government
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government
>> of
>> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
>> baseless.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 7.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> >> >> persons'
>> >> >> status
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS
>> >> >> TONE..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at
>> the
>> >> >> behest of their masters.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
>> >> >>
>> >> >> __________________________
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from
>> the
>> >> >> date
>> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>> >> >> scurrilous
>> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day.
>> Or,
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and
>> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the
>> >> >> list
>> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>> >> >> immediate
>> >> >> effect.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in
>> >> >> favour of
>> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a
>> >> >> half)
>> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in
>> >> >> serious
>> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
>> >> >> rubbish
>> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on
>> >> >> grounds
>> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
>> benefit
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially
>> when
>> >> >> I do
>> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger
>> >> >> need a
>> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya
>> Raj
>> >> >> Kaul
>> >> >> and their allies.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that
>> they
>> >> >> can
>> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>> >> >> conjecture.
>> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
>> arguments
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
>> personal
>> >> >> lives
>> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread
>> >> >> poison
>> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There
>> have
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a
>> >> >> foreign
>> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or
>> I
>> >> >> am
>> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
>> suggests
>> >> >> that I
>> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
>> statement
>> >> >> about
>> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to
>> >> >> settle
>> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation
>> >> >> proves
>> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness.
>> The
>> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious
>> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign
>> power'
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such
>> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel
>> and
>> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the
>> >> >> grounds
>> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and
>> the
>> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a
>> >> >> person or
>> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
>> conceal.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> regards
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Shuddha
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>