[Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100

Mon Nov 10 14:48:52 IST 2008

Ah! Dear Rajendra Bhat! Are you too cognitionally challenged like our friend
Pawan? The list is not gagging the "voice of dissent" as you so charmingly
characterise the hindu fascists in our midst. The list is merely attempting
to hold people accountable for the lies they spread about other members. If
you spent a little time reading Shuddha's mail, you will notice that he does
not raise the issue of anyone's politics or ideaology anywhere. He is only
refers to statements which allege that some list members have received
*payment* for what they write. Surely even you would agree that this comes
under every definition of libel and if indeed Pawan and Aditya are in
possession of information regarding Shuddha's paychecks, it should not be
any trouble to furnish this list with proof.

See, I could demand that you be removed from the list for calling me a
terror supporter. Am I? No. because it your (erroneous) *opinion* of me. In
return I could say you are a bigoted fascist, but because I am a
well-brought up young woman I won't. Regardless, I will have to suffer your
presence as you are forced to suffer mine.

However Pawan and Aditya have not simply abused, sworn at and *spat at*
people on this list, they have made serious libellous allegations against
them. Do you not think they should rpove this? Do you think it is ok to make
baseless charges against people and damage their credibility? No it is not.

So, prove what you say or leave.

warm regards as always
Aarti

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Oh, now it is" we "  versus they. ?
>
>  I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more
> citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its
> citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in
> kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to
> seek justice.?
>
>  Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again and
> again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves is
> that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is
> functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and other
>  terror supporters on the list.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" <reader-list-request at sarai.net>
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM
> Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100
>
> Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
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>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530
> From: "Aarti Sethi" <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List
> To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com>,
>     Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> Message-ID:
>     <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter
> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our
> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but
> bleats to offer.
>
> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we
> wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it
> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate
> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not
> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as
> well.
>
> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The
> game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put
> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the
> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where
> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is.
>
> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations
> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself
> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather
> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice.
>
> Warm regards
> (as it seems for the last time)
>
> Aarti
>
> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any
> private communications with you at all.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Lastly,
> >
> > My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology
> which
> > I can understand.
> >
> > The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a
> > right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any
> > member..
> > So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ]
> >
> > Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.
> >
> > If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the
> > judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double
> > the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in
> my
> > ideology.
> >
> > So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand
> > that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in
> > either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i
> am
> > really a hurdle.
> >
> > But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Pawan Durani
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Kirdar,
> > >
> > > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes
> > him
> > > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
> > >
> > > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this
> > > group.
> > >
> > > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
> > >
> > > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
> > >
> > > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
> > > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have
> > one.
> > >
> > > Pawan
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Dear Pawan
> > >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
> > >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
> > >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
> > >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
> > >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
> > >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
> > >>
> > >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
> > >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" -
> > >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
> > >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
> > >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
> > >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
> > >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
> > >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy
> > >> about the plight of KPs.
> > >>
> > >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
> > >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
> > >> is ticking.
> > >>
> > >> Kirdar
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <
> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Dear Kirdar,
> > >> >
> > >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they
> come
> > >> from .
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters
> of
> > >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless
> he
> > >> > considers himself one.
> > >> >
> > >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
> > >> Geelani
> > >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write
> > >> that
> > >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
> > >> investigated.What
> > >> > makes the two different ?
> > >> >
> > >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of
> > certain
> > >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens
> in
> > >> all
> > >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he
> > co
> > >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members
> and
> > >> non
> > >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
> > >> >
> > >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates
> just
> > >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone
> > >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on
> this
> > >> list
> > >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate
> > >> .....
> > >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
> > >> himself
> > >> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
> > >> >
> > >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena
> ,
> > >> Panun
> > >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything
> wrong
> > >> with
> > >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
> > >> However i
> > >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of
> > the
> > >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its
> member
> > >> as we
> > >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for
> > advise.
> > >> But
> > >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of
> > >> these.
> > >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all
> > >> odds.
> > >> >
> > >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
> > >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri
> pandits
> > >> world
> > >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to
> scuttle
> > >> the
> > >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
> > >> >
> > >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with
> > Chinese
> > >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why
> does
> > it
> > >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself
> a
> > >> > supporter of that ?
> > >> >
> > >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom
> is
> > >> to
> > >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
> > >> undergone
> > >> > Exodus and genocide.
> > >> >
> > >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I
> > >> myself
> > >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and
> > >> what
> > >> > not to word.
> > >> >
> > >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not
> > challenge
> > >> a
> > >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha
> and
> > >> > others be removed.
> > >> >
> > >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so
> > >> they do
> > >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
> > >> >
> > >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> > Pawan Durani
> > >> >
> > >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Dear Pawan
> > >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
> > >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of
> > foreign
> > >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support
> such
> > >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I
> > think
> > >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half
> that
> > >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you
> are
> > >> >> gone.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
> > >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
> > >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please
> > >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you
> > >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list.
> Maybe
> > >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
> > >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Kirdar
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <
> > pawan.durani at gmail.com
> > >> >
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > Dear All,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
> > >> exposed.
> > >> >> > The
> > >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me
> ,
> > >> >> > Aditya ,
> > >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
> > >> nothing
> > >> >> > but
> > >> >> > figment of his own imagination.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder
> ,
> > >> >> > Shivam
> > >> >> > and Arti have to be.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Pawan
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>  Dear All,
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on
> our
> > >> list,
> > >> >> >> and
> > >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
> > >> >> >> Unfortunately it
> > >> >> >> is not without precedent.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun
> Kashmir'
> > >> and
> > >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced
> > with
> > >> >> >> detailed
> > >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their
> 'case',
> > >> >> >> habitually
> > >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
> > >> >> >> desires to
> > >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena
> >  goon
> > >> >> >> allies
> > >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at
> the
> > >> >> >> university.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Of late,there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in
> > this
> > >> >> >> list,
> > >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
> > >> associated
> > >> >> >> with
> > >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
> > >> >> >> insinuations
> > >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya
> > Raj
> > >> >> >> Kaul)
> > >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK
> gospel
> > or
> > >> >> >> the
> > >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be
> > doing
> > >> so
> > >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
> > >> masters'
> > >> >> >> and
> > >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their
> > ethical
> > >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of
> these
> > >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
> > >> position
> > >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
> > >> account
> > >> >> >> for
> > >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of
> > being
> > >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain.
> So,
> > >> >> >> 'writers'
> > >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid
> > >> agent,
> > >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was
> made
> > >> when
> > >> >> >> the
> > >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
> > >> >> >> propoganda
> > >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they
> > are
> > >> >> >> being
> > >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
> their
> > >> >> >> local
> > >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the
> > foreign
> > >> >> >> hand'
> > >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
> > >> >> >> politicians
> > >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails.
> > It
> > >> is
> > >> >> >> the
> > >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
> > >> >> >> reality and
> > >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide
> > but
> > >> >> >> fails
> > >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia
> Jabbar
> > >> on
> > >> >> >> to
> > >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr.
> Durani
> > >> >> >> keeps,
> > >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
> > >> >> >> Kashmir'
> > >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to
> write
> > >> for
> > >> >> >> their
> > >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one
> that
> > >> >> >> these
> > >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem
> to
> > be
> > >> >> >> doing
> > >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
> > >> beholden
> > >> >> >> to.
> > >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers
> admitting
> > >> to
> > >> >> >> the
> > >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as
> > their
> > >> own
> > >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who
> > doesn't
> > >> >> >> agree
> > >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions
> > >> when
> > >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard
> > >> line
> > >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further,
> Aarti
> > >> has
> > >> >> >> been
> > >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
> > accused
> > >> of
> > >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two
> > specific
> > >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been
> > called
> > >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take
> > >> this
> > >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made
> > casually
> > >> >> >> either.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing
> > what
> > >> we
> > >> >> >> are
> > >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or
> 'terrorist'
> > is
> > >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am
> willing
> > >> to
> > >> >> >> take
> > >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
> > >> >> >> accounts
> > >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani
> should
> > >> think
> > >> >> >> that
> > >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for
> > purchase
> > >> at
> > >> >> >> such
> > >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a
> hired
> > >> hack
> > >> >> >> who
> > >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
> > >> leavings
> > >> >> >> from
> > >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No
> one
> > is
> > >> >> >> paid by
> > >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything.
> No
> > >> >> >> payments
> > >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of
> writing
> > >> >> >> either.
> > >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing
> > on
> > >> the
> > >> >> >> Reader List either.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list,
> to
> > >> the
> > >> >> >> Sarai
> > >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
> > >> >> >> professional
> > >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
> > >> especially
> > >> >> >> as
> > >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been
> willing
> > >> to
> > >> >> >> ignore
> > >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
> > >> thrown
> > >> >> >> in
> > >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two
> weeks,
> > >> then
> > >> >> >> we
> > >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not
> > think
> > >> >> >> deserves
> > >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each
> > quote
> > >> >> >> with
> > >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
> > >> taken,
> > >> >> >> so
> > >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
> > >> follow
> > >> >> >> each
> > >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
> > >> capitalized
> > >> >> >> for
> > >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> --------------------------
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 1.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
> > >> >> >> COUNTRY ,
> > >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
> > >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment
> > >> case
> > >> >> >> are
> > >> >> >> being followed more closely.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and
> their
> > >> links
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come
> > out
> > >> >> >> soon..."
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and
> the
> > >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort
> > backed
> > >> by
> > >> >> >> a
> > >> >> >> foreign country'
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are
> being
> > >> >> >> ascertained'
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details
> of
> > >> how
> > >> >> >> he
> > >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above,
> or
> > >> >> >> stand
> > >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
> > >> character
> > >> >> >> and
> > >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to
> > >> know
> > >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to
> > >> count
> > >> >> >> as
> > >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 2.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL
> > TIME
> > >> >> >> JOB
> > >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am
> > neither
> > >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader
> > >> List
> > >> >> >> on any
> > >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
> want
> > >> to
> > >> >> >> know
> > >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the
> Reader
> > >> List
> > >> >> >> is a
> > >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
> > >> substantiate
> > >> >> >> this,
> > >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say
> what
> > I
> > >> >> >> do, or
> > >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for
> > >> this.
> > >> >> >> In
> > >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate
> > this
> > >> >> >> charge,
> > >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from
> this
> > >> list,
> > >> >> >> or
> > >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 3.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
> > Displacement
> > >> >> >> from
> > >> >> >> Kashmir
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID
> > JOB,
> > >> >> >> UNLIKE
> > >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
> > >> support
> > >> >> >> their
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...."
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies,
> > from
> > >> >> >> reading
> > >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
> > >> >> >> because
> > >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
> > >> >> >> immediately
> > >> >> >> before this still hold.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 4.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
> > Displacement
> > >> >> >> from
> > >> >> >> Kashmir
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail,
> > and
> > >> >> >> also IT
> > >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in
> > the
> > >> >> >> way he
> > >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 5.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
> > Displacement
> > >> >> >> from
> > >> >> >> Kashmir
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS
> > and
> > >> we
> > >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to
> me
> > >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani
> have
> > a
> > >> >> >> list of
> > >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making
> > here
> > >> >> >> that I
> > >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not
> have
> > >> this
> > >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he
> > should
> > >> be
> > >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 6.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
> > >> >> >> persons'
> > >> >> >> status
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know
> what
> > I
> > >> >> >> mean."
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree
> > with
> > >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What
> does
> > >> >> >> "Chinese
> > >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
> > >> Kuomintang
> > >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
> preference
> > >> for
> > >> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
> > >> >> >> referring to
> > >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
> > >> specifically
> > >> >> >> those
> > >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
> > >> >> >> government
> > >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people
> he
> > >> >> >> would
> > >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
> > >> critics
> > >> >> >> of
> > >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
> > >> government
> > >> >> >> of
> > >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone
> > on
> > >> >> >> record
> > >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
> > >> government
> > >> >> >> of
> > >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the
> > Government
> > >> of
> > >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
> > >> baseless.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 7.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
> > >> >> >> persons'
> > >> >> >> status
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR
> > MASTERS
> > >> >> >> TONE..."
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's
> > insinuation
> > >> >> >> that
> > >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act
> > at
> > >> the
> > >> >> >> behest of their masters.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> -----------------
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> __________________________
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day
> (from
> > >> the
> > >> >> >> date
> > >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable
> > proof
> > >> >> >> for
> > >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
> > >> >> >> scurrilous
> > >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one
> day.
> > >> Or,
> > >> >> >> if
> > >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated
> > and
> > >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
> >  the
> > >> >> >> list
> > >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
> > >> >> >> immediate
> > >> >> >> effect.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been
> in
> > >> >> >> favour of
> > >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year
> and
> > a
> > >> >> >> half)
> > >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies
> (in
> > >> >> >> serious
> > >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
> > >> >> >> rubbish
> > >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his
> expulsion
> > on
> > >> >> >> grounds
> > >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
> > >> benefit
> > >> >> >> of
> > >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech'
> especially
> > >> when
> > >> >> >> I do
> > >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in
> > anger
> > >> >> >> need a
> > >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani,
> Aditya
> > >> Raj
> > >> >> >> Kaul
> > >> >> >> and their allies.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm
> that
> > >> they
> > >> >> >> can
> > >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
> > >> >> >> conjecture.
> > >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
> > >> arguments
> > >> >> >> and
> > >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
> > >> personal
> > >> >> >> lives
> > >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora,
> > spread
> > >> >> >> poison
> > >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity.
> There
> > >> have
> > >> >> >> to
> > >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by
> a
> > >> >> >> foreign
> > >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I
> am,
> > or
> > >> I
> > >> >> >> am
> > >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
> > >> suggests
> > >> >> >> that I
> > >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
> > >> statement
> > >> >> >> about
> > >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way
> > to
> > >> >> >> settle
> > >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the
> allegation
> > >> >> >> proves
> > >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false
> witness.
> > >> The
> > >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very
> serious
> > >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign
> > >> power'
> > >> >> >> in
> > >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today.
> > Such
> > >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is
> > libel
> > >> and
> > >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on
> > the
> > >> >> >> grounds
> > >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself
> and
> > >> the
> > >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame
> a
> > >> >> >> person or
> > >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression..
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
> > >> conceal.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> regards
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Shuddha
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > _________________________________________
> > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > >> >> > To unsubscribe:
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> reader-list mailing list
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> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>
>
> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100
> ********************************************
>
>
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> _________________________________________
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