[Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Mon Nov 10 18:40:35 IST 2008 

Inder ,

Where does Hindu come here in his statement ?

Or does this do approve and enjoy Hindu bashing.....

Why does no one remind Inder of Hindu bashing ........

Isnt it a pattern here ?

Pawan

On 11/10/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> i quote Rajendra Bhat
>
> "the list will be extinct soon with only left thoughts and praise of
> mutual admiration society in view"
>
> well, dear Rajendra Bhat,  the extinction of List without you, as you
> presume, will still be less painful  than so many other species which
> disappear from the world, please dont worry about the List.
>
> i quote Rajendra Bhat again
>
> "where the raped nun meets none to seek justice.?"
>
> Dear Rajendra ji
>
> how about this gross insensitivity towards a woman who suffered the
> worst....  is this the  standard Hindu way of talking to a woman who
> might be still in shock ?
>
> this is all sad
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, rajendra bhat
> <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Oh, now it is" we "  versus they. ?
> >
> >  I can not understand the desperation of these "we" as more and more
> citizens are accepting the "fascist" BJP is better and more states and its
> citizens are voting for it as they see the damages done in by a Gulam in
> kashmir, the bishops game in Khandamal, where the raped nun meets none to
> seek justice.?
> >
> >  Are indian citizens such fools that they can be fooled time and again
> and again.? If the list starts gagging the voices of dissent all it achieves
> is that its other members will know how secular and democratic this list is
> functioning under the control of "we"., likes of Arti, Shuddha and
> other  terror supporters on the list.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" <reader-list-request at sarai.net>
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Monday, 10 November, 2008 2:14:43 PM
> > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100
> >
> > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
> >     reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >     reader-list-request at sarai.net
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >     reader-list-owner at sarai.net
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: About Accusations on this List (Aarti Sethi)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:26 +0530
> > From: "Aarti Sethi" <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] About Accusations on this List
> > To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> > Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com>,
> >     Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> > Message-ID:
> >     <48c2916d0811100044t1ea6cee3l2c738df4769e3921 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> > I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter
> > with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our
> > fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing
> but
> > bleats to offer.
> >
> > Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If
> we
> > wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it
> > long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate
> > occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not
> > asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as
> > well.
> >
> > So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend.
> The
> > game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put
> > question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not
> the
> > same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money)
> where
> > your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is.
> >
> > Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations
> > against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask
> yourself
> > whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts,
> rather
> > than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice.
> >
> > Warm regards
> > (as it seems for the last time)
> >
> > Aarti
> >
> > P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any
> > private communications with you at all.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Lastly,
> >>
> >> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology
> which
> >> I can understand.
> >>
> >> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have
> a
> >> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any
> >> member..
> >> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ]
> >>
> >> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.
> >>
> >> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the
> >> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than
> double
> >> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in
> my
> >> ideology.
> >>
> >> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can
> understand
> >> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe
> in
> >> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i
> am
> >> really a hurdle.
> >>
> >> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.
> >>
> >> regards
> >>
> >> Pawan Durani
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Kirdar,
> >> >
> >> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes
> >> him
> >> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
> >> >
> >> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of
> this
> >> > group.
> >> >
> >> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
> >> >
> >> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
> >> >
> >> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
> >> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt
> have
> >> one.
> >> >
> >> > Pawan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear Pawan
> >> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
> >> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
> >> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
> >> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
> >> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
> >> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
> >> >>
> >> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
> >> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror"
> -
> >> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
> >> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
> >> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
> >> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
> >> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
> >> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings.. Why should anyone be happy
> >> >> about the plight of KPs.
> >> >>
> >> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
> >> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
> >> >> is ticking.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kirdar
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <
> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Dear Kirdar,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they
> come
> >> >> from .
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters
> of
> >> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless
> he
> >> >> > considers himself one.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
> >> >> Geelani
> >> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i
> write
> >> >> that
> >> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
> >> >> investigated.What
> >> >> > makes the two different ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of
> >> certain
> >> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens
> in
> >> >> all
> >> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless
> he
> >> co
> >> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members
> and
> >> >> non
> >> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates
> just
> >> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust
> anyone
> >> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on
> this
> >> >> list
> >> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate
> >> >> .....
> >> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
> >> >> himself
> >> >> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv
> Sena ,
> >> >> Panun
> >> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything
> wrong
> >> >> with
> >> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
> >> >> However i
> >> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of
> >> the
> >> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its
> member
> >> >> as we
> >> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for
> >> advise.
> >> >> But
> >> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone
> of
> >> >> these.
> >> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all
> >> >> odds.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
> >> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri
> pandits
> >> >> world
> >> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to
> scuttle
> >> >> the
> >> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with
> >> Chinese
> >> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why
> does
> >> it
> >> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself
> a
> >> >> > supporter of that ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom
> is
> >> >> to
> >> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
> >> >> undergone
> >> >> > Exodus and genocide.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I
> >> >> myself
> >> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word
> and
> >> >> what
> >> >> > not to word.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not
> >> challenge
> >> >> a
> >> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha
> and
> >> >> > others be removed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully ,
> so
> >> >> they do
> >> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Regards
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Pawan Durani
> >> >> >
> >> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Dear Pawan
> >> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
> >> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of
> >> foreign
> >> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support
> such
> >> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I
> >> think
> >> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half
> that
> >> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you
> are
> >> >> >> gone.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
> >> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
> >> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof,
> please
> >> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations
> you
> >> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list.
> Maybe
> >> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
> >> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Kirdar
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <
> >> pawan.durani at gmail.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Dear All,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
> >> >> exposed.
> >> >> >> > The
> >> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like
> me ,
> >> >> >> > Aditya ,
> >> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
> >> >> nothing
> >> >> >> > but
> >> >> >> > figment of his own imagination.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder
> ,
> >> >> >> > Shivam
> >> >> >> > and Arti have to be.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Pawan
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  Dear All,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on
> our
> >> >> list,
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
> >> >> >> >> Unfortunately it
> >> >> >> >> is not without precedent.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun
> Kashmir'
> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced
> >> with
> >> >> >> >> detailed
> >> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their
> 'case',
> >> >> >> >> habitually
> >> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express
> their
> >> >> >> >> desires to
> >> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena
> >>  goon
> >> >> >> >> allies
> >> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at
> the
> >> >> >> >> university.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in
> >> this
> >> >> >> >> list,
> >> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
> >> >> associated
> >> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
> >> >> >> >> insinuations
> >> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from
> Aditya
> >> Raj
> >> >> >> >> Kaul)
> >> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK
> gospel
> >> or
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be
> >> doing
> >> >> so
> >> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
> >> >> masters'
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their
> >> ethical
> >> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of
> these
> >> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
> >> >> position
> >> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
> >> >> account
> >> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of
> >> being
> >> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain.
> So,
> >> >> >> >> 'writers'
> >> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a
> paid
> >> >> agent,
> >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was
> made
> >> >> when
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
> >> >> >> >> propoganda
> >> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they
> >> are
> >> >> >> >> being
> >> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
> their
> >> >> >> >> local
> >> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the
> >> foreign
> >> >> >> >> hand'
> >> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that
> Indian
> >> >> >> >> politicians
> >> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else
> fails.
> >> It
> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect
> with
> >> >> >> >> reality and
> >> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to
> hide
> >> but
> >> >> >> >> fails
> >> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia
> Jabbar
> >> >> on
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr.
> Durani
> >> >> >> >> keeps,
> >> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
> >> >> >> >> Kashmir'
> >> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to
> write
> >> >> for
> >> >> >> >> their
> >> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one
> that
> >> >> >> >> these
> >> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem
> to
> >> be
> >> >> >> >> doing
> >> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
> >> >> beholden
> >> >> >> >> to.
> >> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers
> admitting
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as
> >> their
> >> >> own
> >> >> >> >> 'paid agents'.. Why else would they offer to pay someone who
> >> doesn't
> >> >> >> >> agree
> >> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific
> occasions
> >> >> when
> >> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK
> hard
> >> >> line
> >> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further,
> Aarti
> >> >> has
> >> >> >> >> been
> >> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
> >> accused
> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two
> >> specific
> >> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been
> >> called
> >> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not
> take
> >> >> this
> >> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made
> >> casually
> >> >> >> >> either.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing
> >> what
> >> >> we
> >> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or
> 'terrorist'
> >> is
> >> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am
> willing
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> take
> >> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my
> bank
> >> >> >> >> accounts
> >> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani
> should
> >> >> think
> >> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for
> >> purchase
> >> >> at
> >> >> >> >> such
> >> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a
> hired
> >> >> hack
> >> >> >> >> who
> >> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
> >> >> leavings
> >> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No
> one
> >> is
> >> >> >> >> paid by
> >> >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything.
> No
> >> >> >> >> payments
> >> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of
> writing
> >> >> >> >> either.
> >> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include
> writing
> >> on
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> Reader List either.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list,
> to
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> Sarai
> >> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
> >> >> >> >> professional
> >> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
> >> >> especially
> >> >> >> >> as
> >> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been
> willing
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> ignore
> >> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
> >> >> thrown
> >> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two
> weeks,
> >> >> then
> >> >> >> >> we
> >> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not
> >> think
> >> >> >> >> deserves
> >> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each
> >> quote
> >> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
> >> >> taken,
> >> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
> >> >> follow
> >> >> >> >> each
> >> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
> >> >> capitalized
> >> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> --------------------------
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 1.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A
> FOREIGN
> >> >> >> >> COUNTRY ,
> >> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
> >> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter ,
> Parlaiment
> >> >> case
> >> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> >> being followed more closely.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and
> their
> >> >> links
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come
> >> out
> >> >> >> >> soon..."
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and
> the
> >> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort
> >> backed
> >> >> by
> >> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> foreign country'
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are
> being
> >> >> >> >> ascertained'
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details
> of
> >> >> how
> >> >> >> >> he
> >> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above,
> or
> >> >> >> >> stand
> >> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
> >> >> character
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like
> to
> >> >> know
> >> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not
> to
> >> >> count
> >> >> >> >> as
> >> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 2.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL
> >> TIME
> >> >> >> >> JOB
> >> >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am
> >> neither
> >> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the
> Reader
> >> >> List
> >> >> >> >> on any
> >> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
> want
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> know
> >> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the
> Reader
> >> >> List
> >> >> >> >> is a
> >> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
> >> >> substantiate
> >> >> >> >> this,
> >> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say
> what
> >> I
> >> >> >> >> do, or
> >> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid
> for
> >> >> this.
> >> >> >> >> In
> >> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate
> >> this
> >> >> >> >> charge,
> >> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from
> this
> >> >> list,
> >> >> >> >> or
> >> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 3.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
> >> Displacement
> >> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> >> Kashmir
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID
> >> JOB,
> >> >> >> >> UNLIKE
> >> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
> >> >> support
> >> >> >> >> their
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion...."
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies,
> >> from
> >> >> >> >> reading
> >> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job'
> (again
> >> >> >> >> because
> >> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have
> asked
> >> >> >> >> immediately
> >> >> >> >> before this still hold.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 4.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
> >> Displacement
> >> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> >> Kashmir
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail,
> >> and
> >> >> >> >> also IT
> >> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write
> in
> >> the
> >> >> >> >> way he
> >> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 5.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
> >> Displacement
> >> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> >> Kashmir
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS
> >> and
> >> >> we
> >> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to
> me
> >> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani
> have
> >> a
> >> >> >> >> list of
> >> >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making
> >> here
> >> >> >> >> that I
> >> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not
> have
> >> >> this
> >> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he
> >> should
> >> >> be
> >> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 6.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
> >> >> >> >> persons'
> >> >> >> >> status
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know
> what
> >> I
> >> >> >> >> mean."
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree
> >> with
> >> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What
> does
> >> >> >> >> "Chinese
> >> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
> >> >> Kuomintang
> >> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
> preference
> >> >> for
> >> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
> >> >> >> >> referring to
> >> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
> >> >> specifically
> >> >> >> >> those
> >> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and
> the
> >> >> >> >> government
> >> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people
> he
> >> >> >> >> would
> >> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
> >> >> critics
> >> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
> >> >> government
> >> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact
> gone
> >> on
> >> >> >> >> record
> >> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
> >> >> government
> >> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the
> >> Government
> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
> >> >> baseless.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 7.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
> >> >> >> >> persons'
> >> >> >> >> status
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR
> >> MASTERS
> >> >> >> >> TONE..."
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's
> >> insinuation
> >> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who
> act
> >> at
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> behest of their masters.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> -----------------
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> __________________________
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day
> (from
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> date
> >> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable
> >> proof
> >> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
> >> >> >> >> scurrilous
> >> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one
> day.
> >> >> Or,
> >> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial,
> motivated
> >> and
> >> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
> >>  the
> >> >> >> >> list
> >> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
> >> >> >> >> immediate
> >> >> >> >> effect.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been
> in
> >> >> >> >> favour of
> >> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year
> and
> >> a
> >> >> >> >> half)
> >> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies
> (in
> >> >> >> >> serious
> >> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with
> their
> >> >> >> >> rubbish
> >> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his
> expulsion
> >> on
> >> >> >> >> grounds
> >> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
> >> >> benefit
> >> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech'
> especially
> >> >> when
> >> >> >> >> I do
> >> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in
> >> anger
> >> >> >> >> need a
> >> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani,
> Aditya
> >> >> Raj
> >> >> >> >> Kaul
> >> >> >> >> and their allies.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm
> that
> >> >> they
> >> >> >> >> can
> >> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
> >> >> >> >> conjecture.
> >> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
> >> >> arguments
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
> >> >> personal
> >> >> >> >> lives
> >> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora,
> >> spread
> >> >> >> >> poison
> >> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity.
> There
> >> >> have
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by
> a
> >> >> >> >> foreign
> >> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I
> am,
> >> or
> >> >> I
> >> >> >> >> am
> >> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
> >> >> suggests
> >> >> >> >> that I
> >> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
> >> >> statement
> >> >> >> >> about
> >> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only
> way
> >> to
> >> >> >> >> settle
> >> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the
> allegation
> >> >> >> >> proves
> >> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false
> witness.
> >> >> The
> >> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very
> serious
> >> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a
> 'foreign
> >> >> power'
> >> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today.
> >> Such
> >> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is
> >> libel
> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection
> on
> >> the
> >> >> >> >> grounds
> >> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself
> and
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame
> a
> >> >> >> >> person or
> >> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression..
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
> >> >> conceal.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> regards
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Shuddha
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > _________________________________________
> >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> >> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > reader-list mailing list
> > reader-list at sarai.net
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >
> >
> > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 100
> > ********************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >      Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up
> now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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