[Reader-list] About the list

Thu Nov 13 23:46:05 IST 2008

Dear Kirdar,

Probably its my first mail as I have joined the list a few days back, though was aware of it for long time. I was an active member of another online community, and we often used to organize offline interactions, and meet ups. We were from all walks of life, from college students to government officials, doctors and engineers. As we expanded, there were some people who started to take benefit out of the group and their number kept growing, or more people joined them.

What happened next.. we started opting out silently, one after another.. 
The group still exist, meets still happen but had lost its charm.

My only question is what benefit did people get taking away these sharing spaces.

I can only pray that the group holds to ground and blossom as its meant to be.

warm regards,

A Khan

--- On Thu, 13/11/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
You folks really have so much time and patience to write philosophical
explanations about your inability to take a bold decision, that I
myself have a doubt that you are being "paid to write these".
It was fun being on Sarai. May be I will join back after a few
decades. Thanks for everything.

Kirdar

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
> Monica,
>
> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan
> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have said
> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in the
> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the
 same
> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in
that
> enterprise.
>
> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in
> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt such
> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my understanding)
> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the only
> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive measures
> like expulsion were not acceptable.
>
> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy
> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>
 elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that
> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a limit
> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>
> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today,
> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the
> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we
come
> back to the question of our list.
>
> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does
 their
> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our
> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the
> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some
> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why
> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>
> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist creep
> we
 have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that some
> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins
Dictionary of
> Sociology.
>
> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology
....
> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and
> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
> open
 use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these
> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
> though not exclusive, mass support."
>
> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My
> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>
> Tapas
>
>
>
> Monica Narula wrote:
>> Dear All
>>
>> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>> intervention from the admin - now increasingly
 feeling like a class
>> monitor!
>>
>> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>> am a little ambivalent about.
>>
>> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from
 all
>> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to
find some
>> votaries.
>>
>> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>> from this process.
>>
>> best
>> Monica
>> List Admin
>>
>> Monica Narula
>> Sarai-CSDS
>> 29 Rajpur Road
>> Delhi 110 054
>> www.sarai.net
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________
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> _________________________________________
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> Critiques & Collaborations
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