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[Shuddhabrata Sengupta]

Dear Tapas,

I agree with you on all the things that you say. I am just arguing  
for a degree of restraint on our part so that it sets an example  
about how the tone of a measured and thought out response to fascism  
might be honed by its adversaries. I am well aware of the signs of  
fascism 'creeping'. And as you say what we are seeing is only the tip  
of a far bigger iceberg. Let's remain patient, intelligent and vigilant.

regards

Shuddha
On 14-Nov-08, at 9:56 PM, Tapas Ray wrote:

> Shuddha,
>
> Sorry for the confusion. I used the word creep as in "project creep",
> etc. I was not calling anyone a "creep". I was talking about the
> advance of fascism, which had been slow and steady for some time and
> seems to be gathering momentum now, especially in light of the army
> officer's involvement - which may be the tip of an iceberg. Hence
> "thrust".
>
> I appreciate your concern for bringing back a semblance of normalcy
> here, but I have a couple of things to say. I agree that other
> political formations in India also have authoritarian tendencies,
> possibly also fascist tendencies. But their followers are not or do
> not seem to be intent on - and succeeding in - taking over this space.
> Secondly, I do think that the one we have on our hands here is the
> most openly and determinedly fascist of them all. Thirdly, there is a
> difference between their ideology and the rest's, and at this time at
> least, the specific nature of their ideology makes them far more
> dangerous than the rest.
>
> I really do not see what purpose is served by calling fascism by
> another name. It is, and will be, a rose. It is necessary to use
> labels at times like this. If you do not, you will not know what
> exactly it is that you are dealing with. These demarcations express
> certain qualities that are unique to or predominant in a certain
> constellation of theory/ies and practice/s, and thus set them apart
> from other constellations. It is a matter of difference. A certain
> color is called pink and another brick in the English language,
> although they are not far from each other on the same small segment of
> the electromagnetic spectrum. I am sure other languages have a
> different set of names for a different set of colors, i.e., different
> points, or different more or less narrowly demarcated bands of the
> spectrum.
>
> I also appreciate your concern for open and free exchange of ideas.
> But I am unable to resolve the contradiction between absolute freedom
> and the freedom for some to curb the freedom of others. However, this
> contradiction was resolved long ago by accepting - and inscribing in
> the constitutions of various countries professing democracy - the
> principle that there can be no absolute freedom, and it is necessary
> to curb some freedoms of some people in order not to put others'
> freedoms in jeopardy. Which freedoms are curbed for protecting which
> other freedoms, is a decision made through power relations - whether
> you believes power resides in class or some other social group, or is
> dispersed.
>
> If we are to ensure absolute freedom in this space, we will need to
> conceive it as one that lies outside power relations, which it can
> never do. Though "virtual", It is very much part of the real world,
> simply because each member is part of the real world, with a distinct
> subjectivity, and the real, physical infrastructure of this "virtual"
> space is also part of the real world (CSDS). As far as I know, spaces
> of discourse free of power relations have been conceived only as an
> ideal types, not as a real possibility. If refraining from using the
> word "fascist" helps us experiment with it in real life, I will be
> happy to do so. In fact, I am going to stop using the word with this
> message, and watch how things go.
>
> However, I urge you to remember something Inder has pointed out - when
> things get a little too messy, these people put on a pleasant, smiling
> mask and seek to divert others' attention to things that resonate with
> those others - say, the environment, or the Iraq war. The only thing
> that changes is their tactic from blunt to subtle (hence more
> insidious), namely dividing their opponents by seeming to play by the
> "rules".
>
> Best,
>
> Tapas
>
>
>
> 2008/11/14 Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>:
>> Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
>>
>> I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your  
>> language.
>> Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist  
>> creep'. The
>> point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on now.  
>> Please do
>> not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people  
>> fascists. No
>> political formation in India today is free of authoritarian and  
>> fascist
>> tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to confront
>> fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic culture that
>> privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to  
>> combat
>> fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
>> exactly like them.
>>
>> Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own  
>> commitment to
>> this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all  
>> points of
>> view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang  
>> up on
>> anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others  
>> before.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>> On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>>
>> On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
>>
>> opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently)  
>> part of the
>>
>> fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust  
>> with every
>>
>> passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> Tapas,
>>
>> Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member  
>> reacted.
>>
>> Pawan
>>
>>
>>
>> Monica,
>>
>> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of  
>> Pawan
>>
>> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
>>
>> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I  
>> have said
>>
>> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when  
>> this
>>
>> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing  
>> in the
>>
>> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the  
>> same
>>
>> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
>>
>> enterprise.
>>
>> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and  
>> now in
>>
>> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
>>
>> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
>>
>> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to  
>> disrupt such
>>
>> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my  
>> understanding)
>>
>> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
>>
>> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was  
>> the only
>>
>> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive  
>> measures
>>
>> like expulsion were not acceptable.
>>
>> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt  
>> democracy
>>
>> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>>
>> elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing  
>> that
>>
>> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a  
>> limit
>>
>> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not,  
>> that
>>
>> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>>
>> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list  
>> today,
>>
>> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
>>
>> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you  
>> have
>>
>> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
>>
>> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression  
>> and the
>>
>> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that  
>> we come
>>
>> back to the question of our list.
>>
>> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>>
>> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
>>
>> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
>>
>> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to  
>> change our
>>
>> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to  
>> flood the
>>
>> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
>>
>> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force  
>> some
>>
>> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the  
>> list. Why
>>
>> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
>>
>> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
>>
>> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions  
>> (along
>>
>> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>>
>> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is  
>> that
>>
>> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist  
>> creep
>>
>> we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
>>
>> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
>>
>> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and  
>> pogroms
>>
>> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation  
>> that some
>>
>> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
>>
>> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
>>
>> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
>>
>> Sociology.
>>
>> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the  
>> ideology ...
>>
>> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist  
>> writings and
>>
>> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial  
>> expansion;
>>
>> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
>>
>> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
>>
>> open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against  
>> these
>>
>> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
>>
>> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
>>
>> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
>>
>> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
>>
>> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and  
>> supporters
>>
>> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
>>
>> though not exclusive, mass support."
>>
>> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason  
>> alone? My
>>
>> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>>
>> Tapas
>>
>>
>> Monica Narula wrote:
>>
>> Dear All
>>
>> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>>
>> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
>>
>> monitor!
>>
>> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>>
>> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>>
>> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>>
>> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>>
>> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>>
>> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>>
>> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>>
>> am a little ambivalent about.
>>
>> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>>
>> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>>
>> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>>
>> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>>
>> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
>>
>> votaries.
>>
>> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>>
>> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>>
>> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>>
>> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>>
>> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>>
>> from this process.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Monica
>>
>> List Admin
>>
>> Monica Narula
>>
>> Sarai-CSDS
>>
>> 29 Rajpur Road
>>
>> Delhi 110 054
>>
>> www.sarai.net
>>
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>>
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>
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>>
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>> _________________________________________
>>
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  
>> subscribe
>> in the subject header.
>>
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>>
>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>
>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>
>> Raqs Media Collective
>>
>> shuddha at sarai.net
>>
>> www.sarai.net
>>
>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>

Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net