[Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.?

Aditya Raj Kaul kauladityaraj at gmail.com
Sat Oct 18 13:13:45 IST 2008


INDER SALIM - I wonder, if you at all have been to this place called
"SCHOOL" ?

Rajendra has a valid point; have the balls to hear the other view point or
just 'get lost' - will you ?

"A true secular school and crap...." - You just go on and on speaking
mindlessly... Secular in today's India means "Muslim
Appeasement".......Wherever Muslims are in minority; have a secular
image....and wherever Muslims are in majority....just make is Islamic
everywhere. There are loads of examples for you to study....You can begin
with your on Kashmir and Gujarat.

I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it. It is by far the most communal
and dangerous.

Aditya Raj Kaul

On 10/17/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> dear Rajendra
>
> the moment you write " IN AYODHYA, THE DILAPIDATED STRUCTURE"  any one
> on the list will know which school you belong,
>
> and i see no harm if people from secular school bluntly says to you : be
> queit.
>
> you need to realize that most of shrines are dilapidated structures,
> be it a temple or a mosque even.
>
> how historicity speaks through these half broken structures is the
> most intersting thing about human civilization and its past. Offering
> prayers at a structure does not it  meaningful or makes it impotent if
> there is none.
>
> . it is the thing-in-itself which has to be taken in on as it is basis,
>
> the only recommended alteration to such things is allowed through
> retoration of it, but never its demolition.
>
> now.if you think that we too should be quite, then you are again
> wasting your time on the List. because your way of living is markedly
> different from those who want to question the violence. Sacred texts
> are calling you, and those politicians urgently need you who mix
> hinduism and nationalism in on go.
>
>   A true secular school is interested in ethics, justice moral
> judgement and respect to the other, there is no space for violence,
> any kind of violence. We need to know what is tolerance all about. It
> is entirely about the other.
>
> so my dear friend, i know you are not alone, on the list or out there,
> but i have no choice but to oppose the kind of thinking you are trying
> to impose on others.
>
> i have nothing but love for you
>
> is
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:17 PM, rajendra bhat
>
> <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Headmistress of which school is asking the students to be quiet.?Is this
> the  way
> >  to behave in the list.?
> > Moderator please be alert for this inept responses.!
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > To: rajendra bhat <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 2:53:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular
> India and its citizens rant and rublings.?
> >
> >
> > oh be quiet!
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:28 PM, rajendra bhat <
> raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > It was a week of rant and rumblings for all citizens about secular india
> and its life as secular republic. Mr. Asgar Ali Enginneer articulated his
> observations of secular india, which for most part are accurate and correct
> about being the citizens going for the crisis in identity of being Indian
> for the other prioritised identity of being marati, tamil or linguistic id
> or the caste id in the last sixty years of free India. But all his thoughts
> were clouded by one black paint, -- his hate for RSS, rastriya swayam sevak
> sangh.Many "secular" citizens and the followers of other faith have been
> consistently fed with the pison that RSS is fascist, RSS is against other
> faiths, RSS does not like muslims, christians etc. RSS ka havva dikake rule
> karne ka chance ab khatham hogaya, bhai, asgar engineer.
> >
> >   Many citizens now have forgotten the role of RSS in the situations when
> the nation was facing calamities and crisis. Ofcourse the left parties even
> today active in propaganda against RSS when they hit out their muslim
> citizens in singur or nandigram, where muslims peasants and poor villagers
> were the worst vistims.!
> >
> >  In the last sixty years of free India, there is distinct three
> generations of indians who have seen free India, -----from 1945 to 1965 as
> midnight children of free India, who are fed with thaparite history of
> India,
> > -------from 1965 to 1985 who have seen the free India with all its riots
> and communal appeasements and the aspirations of citizens being thwarted by
> dynastic rule of the family and its sycophantic hangers on.The three wars
> with Pakistan, and china and the role of the left parties during these
> wars.The role of RSS in national calamity be it kashmir aggression in 1948,
> be it 1962 chinese aggression when RSS volanteers worked with defence forces
> in civil control and other duties, or the cyclone in eastern coast of India
> ,in particular, Andhra where none dared to touch the dead bodies of victims,
> when RSS volanteers were the ones who gave decent burials and cremation to
> the dead, irrespective of the faith of the vistims,  is forgotten.During the
> mergency imposed, the RSS was in the forefront to struggle for the rights
> and freedom of all citizens, again it never claimed any credit for the work
> as it is national duty that it performed with its volanteers.
> >
> >  The critical phase is the third phase, the present, where the this
> generation has citizens who have no respect for their duties but are only
> concerned about their rights in national life.. From 1985 to now, we have
> seen the "intellectuals" of the all political spectrum taking the new
> thoughts of nation without boundaries, walking and talking republic
> citizens, who want all the rights but do not take any responsibilty for the
> duties of the citizens.! The very idea of rights without responsibilty  is
> irresponsible citizenship. Then came the bunch of NGOs, rights activists in
> this present national life, for whom, the rights means only those rights of
> deviant citizens.? Law abiding citizens have no rights.? Here lies the
> danger of undermining the law keepers  by law breakers in free India. It is
> ridiculous to see the NGOs defending the terror accused of one community
> only, and the basic fault line lies in law enforcers not acting quickly when
> any deviant
> >  behaviour occurs. In Godhra, if the action of burning the compartment
> was violent deviant criminal act, it was expected that the law would take
> immediate action to prosecute those involved, irrespective of the faith of
> such criminals, to book, prosecute and punish such deviant crime and
> behaviour. It did not happen.
> >
> >   In Ayodhya, a dilapidated structure which was not used for prayer
> offerings for decades was disputed land, pending in the courts for decades,
> nay almost century.. Prompt action from leadership of all the citizens
> involved would have ended in harmony and good national life of love and
> compassion, no, it never happened, a PM used it to appease hindu votes for
> his decaying oldest party, even though the leader himself was considered
> honest, Mr. Clean.To balance the act, personal laws of minority was tampered
> to alimony issues. Now the battle lines were drawn to fight with each other,
> thanks to this leadership, interference in the internal matters of another
> nation, Sri Lanka was another hall mark, with LTTE getting overt and covet
> support from this leader, for which he had to pay with his life., thus
> dravidian appeasement was the name of the game. With divided citizens along
> the faith, region and caste lines, who got the benefi to rule.? The lady
> from the
> >  back alleys of london, a bar tender who was in certificate course in
> English.But more importantly, the lady represented that 2 percent community,
> to rule, after the slavery of british days.! Divided citizens today have
> forgotten that they are indians first, the faith and region have taken over
> the id. More the division, better it is for the corrupt to rule, and it is
> easier for the rulers to be dictators.
> >
> >   Wake up, id forgotten citzens, your id is indian, not of any faith in
> democracy. Otherwise the bishops will take tothe rule with their proxies.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" <reader-list-request at sarai.net>
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:36:07 AM
> > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69
> >
> > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
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> >
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> > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray)
> >   2. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray)
> >   3. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Britta Ohm)
> >   4. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Rajkamal Goswami)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400
> > From: "Tapas Ray" <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Message-ID:
> >     <e86cc8540810161347m6a009af4s12ce7b9e982a5631 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> > ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better
> > place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the
> > Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am
> > sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>:
> >> i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali
> Engineer.
> >>
> >> vedavati
> >>
> >> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> >> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM
> >>
> >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> >>
> >> Asghar Ali Engineer
> >>
> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)
> >>
> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
> >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
> >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
> >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
> >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
> >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
> >> as linguistic.
> >>
> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
> >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
> >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
> >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
> >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite
> >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.
> >>
> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
> >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often
> >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
> >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand
> >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
> >> articulate and loud.
> >>
> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
> >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
> >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
> >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
> >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
> >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.
> >>
> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
> >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
> >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
> >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until
> >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
> >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.
> >>
> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
> >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
> >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
> >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
> >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
> >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.
> >>
> >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos
> >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
> >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
> >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
> >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism
> >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.
> >>
> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the
> >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
> >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
> >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
> >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.
> >>
> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva
> >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
> >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
> >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
> >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
> >> districts, is indeed hair raising.
> >>
> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
> >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35
> >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
> >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that
> >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
> >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?
> >>
> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
> >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted
> >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
> >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to
> >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
> >> just look on.
> >>
> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
> >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
> >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
> >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
> >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
> >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
> >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.
> >>
> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
> >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
> >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
> >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
> >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
> >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
> >> with America than the communal explosion back home.
> >>
> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the
> >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
> >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
> >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
> >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
> >> license to function freely.
> >>
> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
> >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
> >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
> >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
> >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
> >> never before.
> >>
> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers
> >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
> >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
> >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
> >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
> >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except
> >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
> >>
> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
> >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
> >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
> >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
> >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva
> >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
> >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
> >> 'shameful'.
> >>
> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
> >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
> >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
> >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa.
> >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
> >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
> >> its complete inability to control communal violence.
> >>
> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
> >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
> >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
> >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
> >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
> >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
> >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
> >> Hitler.
> >>
> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
> >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
> >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
> >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after
> >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
> >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.
> >>
> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
> >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
> >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
> >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
> >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
> >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
> >> terrorists'.
> >>
> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and
> >> play determined role things can get far more worse.
> >> _________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400
> > From: "Tapas Ray" <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Message-ID:
> >     <e86cc8540810161424u6f7fae1el96906bb0b960c78c at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> > Britta,
> >
> > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ...
> > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ...
> > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts
> > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply
> > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep
> > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their
> > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely.
> > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too.
> >
> > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a
> > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no
> > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad
> > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as
> > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the
> > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the
> > list is not physically wrecked.
> >
> > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh.
> >
> > Tapas
> >
> >
> > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>:
> >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been
> >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms
> >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible
> >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I
> >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse
> >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not
> >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to
> >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the
> >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list.
> >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism,
> >> subservience and silent suffering?
> >> Britta
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya:
> >>
> >>> India is secular:
> >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
> >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not
> >>> have that.
> >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
> >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged
> >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their
> >>> own motherland
> >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be
> >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal
> >>>
> >>> Not to say the last words..
> >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or
> >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies
> >>> because we chose to remain Hindu.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200
> > From: Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > To: "Tapas Ray" <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai..net
> > Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1 at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed;
> >     delsp=yes
> >
> > Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable
> > arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair
> > for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have
> > to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea
> > of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it
> > wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance
> > of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It
> > might be longer than ours.
> > All best -- Britta
> >
> >
> > Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray:
> >
> >> Britta,
> >>
> >> Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ...
> >> at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ...
> >> can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts
> >> sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply
> >> filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep
> >> ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their
> >> territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely.
> >> When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too.
> >>
> >> They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a
> >> completely different language, which the rest of the members have no
> >> intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad
> >> nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as
> >> you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the
> >> time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the
> >> list is not physically wrecked.
> >>
> >> Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh.
> >>
> >> Tapas
> >>
> >>
> >> 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>:
> >>> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has
> >>> been
> >>> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the
> >>> paradigms
> >>> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible
> >>> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I
> >>> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse
> >>> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not
> >>> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to
> >>> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits,
> >>> the
> >>> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list.
> >>> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism,
> >>> subservience and silent suffering?
> >>> Britta
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya:
> >>>
> >>>> India is secular:
> >>>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
> >>>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not
> >>>> have that.
> >>>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
> >>>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged
> >>>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their
> >>>> own motherland
> >>>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be
> >>>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal
> >>>>
> >>>> Not to say the last words..
> >>>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or
> >>>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies
> >>>> because we chose to remain Hindu.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> _________________________________________
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> > ___________________
> >
> > Britta Ohm
> > Postdoc
> > University of Zurich
> > UPRP Asia and Europe
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530
> > From: "Rajkamal Goswami" <rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > To: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Message-ID:
> >     <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595 at mail..gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> > Dear javed,
> > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult
> some
> > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not
> > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor
> it
> > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you
> > understand what secularism means.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> >>
> >> Asghar Ali Engineer
> >>
> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)
> >>
> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
> >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
> >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
> >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
> >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
> >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
> >> as linguistic.
> >>
> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
> >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
> >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
> >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
> >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite
> >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.
> >>
> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
> >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often
> >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
> >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand
> >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
> >> articulate and loud.
> >>
> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
> >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
> >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
> >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
> >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
> >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.
> >>
> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
> >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
> >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
> >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until
> >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
> >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.
> >>
> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
> >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
> >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
> >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
> >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
> >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.
> >>
>
> >> Now theidentity politics soared quite high and national ethos
>
> >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
> >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
> >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
> >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism
> >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.
> >>
> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the
> >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
> >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
> >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
> >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.
> >>
> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva
> >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
> >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
> >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
> >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
> >> districts, is indeed hair raising.
> >>
> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
> >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35
> >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
> >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that
> >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
> >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?
> >>
> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
> >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted
> >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
> >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to
> >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
> >> just look on.
> >>
> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
> >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
> >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
> >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
> >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
> >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
> >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.
> >>
> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
> >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
> >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
> >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
> >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
> >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
> >> with America than the communal explosion back home.
> >>
> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the
> >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
> >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
> >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
> >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
> >> license to function freely.
> >>
> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
> >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
> >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
> >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
> >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
> >> never before.
> >>
> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers
> >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
> >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
> >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
> >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
> >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except
> >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
> >>
> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
> >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
> >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
> >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
> >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva
> >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
> >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
> >> 'shameful'.
> >>
> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
> >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
> >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
> >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa.
> >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
> >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
> >> its complete inability to control communal violence.
> >>
> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
> >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
> >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
> >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
> >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
> >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
> >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
> >> Hitler.
> >>
> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
> >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
> >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
> >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after
> >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
> >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.
> >>
> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
> >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
> >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
> >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
> >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
> >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
> >> terrorists'.
> >>
> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and
> >> play determined role things can get far more worse.
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rajkamal Goswami
> > ATREE, Bangalore-24
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
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> >
> >
> > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69
> > *******************************************
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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>
>
>
> --
>
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>
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