[Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

[Aarti Sethi]

Dear Crybabies,

This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone
who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the
moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal
a 'moron'. 'Moron'  'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is
"filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that
routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and
radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you
are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is
simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views.

The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you
wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are
well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in
invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal
about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you
routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist,
racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation
in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not
be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when
confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of
prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called
Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do
not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge
of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal
laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong.

Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues:

Chanchal on Muslim women:

"He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four is
from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand possesses..."

"You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having
more than one wife.."

Chanchal on Hindu Women:

"This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about
(mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded
their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing
problems alike western girls...   I am very clear on a simple point - if a
girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will
ever try to even look at her even
 in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva"

Chanchal on Indian History:

"They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of
Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and
declared that it is their property....

Chanchal on International relations:

"The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all
HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India."

Chanchal on Art:

"I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much
more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to
the world)..."

Chanchal on Sex:

"Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood."

Chanchal on Secularism:

"Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as
long as Hindus are in majority."
"Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - all
are safe in the hand of Hindus only..."

Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we
are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to
immediately apologise.

Warmly
Aarti






On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
<kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:

> Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in
> trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on
> part
> of so called List Administrators..
>
> So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own.
>
> On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making
> > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy
> > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called
> knowledge
> > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other
> > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless",
> > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System
> > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people
> from
> > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to
> unsubscribe.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>;
> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com;
> > reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> >
> >
> >
> > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult,
> > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But
> > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul.
> You
> > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out,
> then I
> > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out
> on
> > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey,
> then
> > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say
> > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than
> > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual,
> > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense.
> >
> > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade.
> > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it
> > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh <
> > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and
> > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action.
> > Prabhakar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> >
> > Chanchal, you moron,
> >
> > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is
> > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act.
> > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in
> > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any
> > religion.
> > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite
> > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu
> > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims,
> > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them.
> > There is nothing wrong with that.
> > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them
> > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the
> > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the
> > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me
> > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested
> > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of
> > how I see my own faith or doubts).
> >
> > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you
> > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing,
> > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and
> > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud
> > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices
> > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the
> > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics
> > bring shame and dishonour to theirs.
> >
> > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless
> > depths of your ignorance.
> >
> > Shuddha
> >
> >
> > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote:
> >
> > > India is secular:
> > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
> > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not
> > > have that.
> > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
> > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged
> > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their
> > > own motherland
> > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be
> > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal
> > >
> > > Not to say the last words..
> > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or
> > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies
> > > because we chose to remain Hindu.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > To: "Javed" <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
> > >
> > > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali
> > > Engineer.
> > >
> > > vedavati
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM
> > >
> > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > >
> > > Asghar Ali Engineer
> > >
> > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)
> > >
> > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
> > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
> > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
> > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
> > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
> > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
> > > as linguistic.
> > >
> > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
> > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
> > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
> > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
> > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite
> > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.
> > >
> > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
> > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often
> > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
> > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand
> > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
> > > articulate and loud.
> > >
> > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
> > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
> > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
> > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
> > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
> > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.
> > >
> > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
> > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
> > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
> > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until
> > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
> > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.
> > >
> > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
> > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
> > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
> > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
> > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
> > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.
> > >
> > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos
> > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
> > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
> > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
> > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism
> > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.
> > >
> > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the
> > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
> > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
> > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
> > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.
> > >
> > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva
> > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
> > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
> > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
> > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
> > > districts, is indeed hair raising.
> > >
> > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
> > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35
> > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
> > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that
> > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
> > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?
> > >
> > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
> > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted
> > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
> > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to
> > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
> > > just look on.
> > >
> > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
> > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
> > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
> > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
> > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
> > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
> > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.
> > >
> > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
> > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
> > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
> > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
> > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
> > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
> > > with America than the communal explosion back home.
> > >
> > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the
> > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
> > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
> > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
> > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
> > > license to function freely.
> > >
> > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
> > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
> > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
> > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
> > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
> > > never before.
> > >
> > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers
> > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
> > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
> > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
> > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
> > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except
> > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
> > >
> > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
> > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
> > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
> > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
> > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva
> > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
> > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
> > > 'shameful'.
> > >
> > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
> > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
> > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
> > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa.
> > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
> > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
> > > its complete inability to control communal violence.
> > >
> > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
> > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
> > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
> > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
> > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
> > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
> > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
> > > Hitler.
> > >
> > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
> > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
> > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
> > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after
> > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
> > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.
> > >
> > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
> > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
> > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
> > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
> > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
> > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
> > > terrorists'.
> > >
> > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and
> > > play determined role things can get far more worse.
> > > _________________________________________
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> >
> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
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> >
> >
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