[Reader-list] action against offenders

[Radhakrishnan]

Dear Shuddha,
We have been witness to too much of ‘intellectual’ threats and counter threats to our cerebral hygiene. I must confess that mails/‘intellectual’ exchanges have crossed all proportions in terms of the slangs and other offensive language and portrays CSDS in bad light so it’s high time to take punitive action to restore some sanity and hope.

Radhakrishnan


On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote :
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>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it
>       (Shuddhabrata Sengupta)
>    2. Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity
>       ( Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् )
>    3. Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik (Aditya Raj Kaul)
>    4. Re: Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter Bamiyan,	the
>       HinduKush and Kakrak (inder salim)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:04:02 +0530
> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at
> 	it
>To: Real Unreal <hiddenbuthere at gmail.com>
>Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>Message-ID: <E1952532-C2B9-45EF-93B3-862BAC96A21E at sarai.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>Dear Real Unreal,
>
>The function of a list like this is not to provide any person with
>the means to exhibit their chosen perversity and personal fetish,
>there are several spaces in the online world where those desires can
>be fulfilled, consensually. This list is not one of those spaces.
>
>I fail to see how or why listening to someone like you insult other
>people's mothers and sisters, or even yourself, with misogynist
>outbursts can in any way help me understand the world. All it helps
>me understand is that you are the kind of person who hides behind an
>assumed handle while they hurl abuse at the world.
>
>It sort of reminds me of the respectable middle class men in public
>transport buses in Delhi who grope girls and women in the anonymity
>of a crowd and then enforce a rigid patriarchy at home and insist
>that their wives, daughters and sisters 'cover themselves up'. They
>too, love to invoke the mothers and sisters of others while invoking
>the defence of their little patch of proprietary masculine pride.
>
>If you want to exhibit your well protected machismo, I suggest that
>you take your fake bravado elsewhere. Or else we can always take
>measures to ensure that you are indeed, taken elsewhere.
>
>There is an emerging consensus on this list that a certain kind of
>language be avoided. I propose that anyone who uses sexist and
>misogynist language (by which I mean expressions insulting to women
>as women) be ejected from the list. I have a great degree of
>tolerance for almost every kind of everyday fascism, which I am happy
>to combat with arguments, but I do draw the line at the kind of
>thuggery that seeks to intimidate everyone on this list by its
>willingness to insult people on the basis of gender. Especially as I
>think that this base level of consciousness does not need to be
>dignified by the labour of counter-argumentation and debate.
>
>As in real life, so too on this list, a well timed and precisely
>targetted blow that silences the speaker of sexist speech, is in my
>opinion the best antidote in circumstances such as the ones that you
>seem to enjoy provoking. If this list were a physical space, I would
>know exactly what to do if someone crossed the line with regard to
>misogyny, as I think you have done.
>
>We have had situations like this before, and we have had to reprimand
>the speakers of sexist and misogynist speech, even if the speakers
>were saying what they had said in the face of the worst kind of
>communal hate speech. In that event, both were reprimanded, with
>equal severity. Luckily, we did not face this kind of offensive
>behaviour until you made your real-unreal persona blossom into the
>midst of our consciousness.
>
>Since this is a virtual space, our options are limited. The well
>timed blow has to take a virtual form. But please understand that it
>does not exclude the possibility of a summary exclusion of the person
>who offends by speaking in a misogynist and abusive manner, not just
>by their name, and list handle, but also by their IP address.
>
>regards
>
>Shuddha
>
>
>
>
>
>On 22-Oct-08, at 6:20 PM, Real Unreal wrote:
>
> > looks my dear friend
> > this all discussion on the list on different topics is not doing one
> > good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants.
> >
> > besides this what is like is that people should take about their
> > intense personal lives. which they will not. all they do is '
> > representation' of this or that.
> >
> > hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, etc etc, this sometimes is boring
> > for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be.
> >
> > i enjoy reading this and that.
> >
> > your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions
> > again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes
> > on the list as if it a havan puja, so can not see the small wet
> > erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras.
> >
> > you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is
> > actually in use out there.
> >
> > now see how much chootiya,  behenchod  ( sister fucker ) is around but
> > we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited.
> > may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the  sponsors might be
> > close it down.
> >
> > anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often,
> >
> > what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those
> > journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in
> > private spaces and use some other language
> >
> > and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects,
> > in the print media out there
> >
> > why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly,
> >
> > who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all
> > chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues,
> > in a very  funny way.
> >
> > you need not agree
> >
> > ru
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> RL,
> >>
> >> Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately
> >> proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say,
> >> probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it
> >> with
> >> words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not
> >> all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to
> >> say
> >> that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my
> >> interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know
> >> what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive
> >> conclusion about me.
> >>
> >> Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong,
> >> and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all.
> >> Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms,
> >> that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to
> >> clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word
> >> for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing
> >> what I
> >> was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think
> >> he was surprised by my reaction.
> >>
> >> The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can
> >> tell me
> >> whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali",
> >> etc. - in English, so that I understand.
> >>
> >> As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little
> >> concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably
> >> feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to
> >> consider this.
> >>
> >> I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ...
> >> leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have
> >> seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital.
> >> But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me,
> >> offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the
> >> flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have
> >> enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends.
> >>
> >> Thanks again,
> >>
> >> Tapas
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2008/10/19 Real Unreal <hiddenbuthere at gmail.com>:
> >>> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho,
> >>>
> >>> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch  zayada hi raita phala rahain
> >>> hai
> >>>
> >>> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko
> >>> pila
> >>> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus
> >>> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi
> >>>
> >>> ru
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> It's just about Aditya.
> >>>>
> >>>> By the way, I love your chosen name.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal <hiddenbuthere at gmail.com>:
> >>>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a
> >>>>> fragment of a
> >>>>> large piece?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray
> >>>>> <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date
> >>>>>> palms.
> >>>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not
> >>>>>> sure)
> >>>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a
> >>>>>> burning
> >>>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and
> >>>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his
> >>>>>> donkey
> >>>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the
> >>>>>> bucket
> >>>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of
> >>>>>> despair - "I
> >>>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>:
> >>>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM
> >>>>>>> or whatever you
> >>>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself
> >>>>>>> with Lal Ded.
> >>>>>>> What can be worse ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my
> >>>>>>> own community;
> >>>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts
> >>>>>>> deaf and dumb. I
> >>>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name,
> >>>>>>> sur-name,
> >>>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit
> >>>>>>> at you thinking.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it
> >>>>>>> now - LOD &
> >>>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ???
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Love
> >>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _________________________________________
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> >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _________________________________________
> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
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> >>> subscribe in the subject header.
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> >>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
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>
>Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>Raqs Media Collective
>shuddha at sarai.net
>www.sarai.net
>www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:15:05 +0530
> From: " Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् "	<mail at shivamvij.com>
>Subject: [Reader-list] Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity
>To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>Message-ID:
> 	<9c06aab30810230945q7ea70ff9g6d1cdbb3b6ab8e1 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity
>
>Ram Puniyani
>
>Last six months have been most disturbing on the Indian political
>scene. As far as the values of integration are concerned they are
>being attacked very severely by terrorist-communal forces. First, we
>saw the series of bomb blasts, Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Delhi and
>Malegaon. It was projected by the authorities that all these acts are
>due to Jehadi Muslim groups that police have succeeded in cracking the
>network. One outcome of this was the Batla house encounter in which
>police, bravely killed the terrorists. It put out a version that now
>the terror ring has been busted and kingpins have been arrested. It is
>another matter that later the relevant-uncomforta ble questions were
>raised and satisfactory answers to these were not forthcoming. On the
>top of this the claim that Malegaon blasts were done by SIMI proved to
>be false as the investigation showed the possibility of ABVP/Bajrang
>Dal being involved in same.
>
>During the same time two Bajrang dal Activists got killed while making
>bomb in Kanpur, two activists of Hindu Jagran Samiti were involved in
>placing the bombs in Thane due to which seven people got injured.
>During this time again in Tenkasi, Tamil Nadu, the bombs went off near
>RSS office and as usual the cry of wolf was made, but the wolf here
>had different shades than what RSS wanted to propagate, as most of
>those planting the bombs turned out to be Hindus, with affiliation,
>which are not difficult to guess.
>
>During the same time the anti Christian violence was orchestrated and
>launched in Orissa to begin with, later on spilling to Karnataka. The
>pretext first was that Christians have beaten Swami Laxmananand
>(December 2007) and later that Christians have killed the swami.
>Interestingly a Maoist group claimed to have killed him but the RSS
>combine stated that they don't believe in the claim of Maoists,
>meaning there by that they have the right to decide who the culprit
>is!
>
>The third tragedy related to the Hindu Muslim violence in Burhanpur,
>Dhulia and few other places on the slightest pretext of tearing a
>banner or some such. What is disturbing is the way things are shaping
>in the country. The anti Muslim hate propaganda, which has been
>sustained on various myths have gradually been taking he shape of deep
>rooted perceptions. Earlier lot of planning and bigger pretext was
>needed to unleash the violence, now even a small pretext suffices to
>initiate the mayhem. Some of the properties are well marked in advance
>for destroying. The loss of lives of minorities is many times more
>than their presence in population.
>
>The stereotyping of Muslim community through reporting of acts of
>terror has boosted the negative perception of the community in a
>serious way. At the same time the there is a realization that there
>are two set of laws, that they will not get justice and that their
>feeling of insecurity in the society is going up by leaps and bounds.
>One does not know whether this disturbs the ruling coalition or not.
>For Muslim minorities to keep faith in the Governemnt in such
>circumstances is not difficult, it is impossible.
>
>Christian minority was not the target till quite late. As the hate
>propaganda based on make believe forcible conversions, allurement,
>insult of our gods, foreign money keep percolating in the society, and
>a silent sanction for attacking them started building up. Now even a
>slightest pretext is sufficient to undertake the despicable violence
>against the community.
>
>This is a clear case as to how already a social mind set has been
>created, through word of mouth propaganda and media where by the
>minorities have been demonized and now the violence against them has
>become the order of the day. Even the global phenomenon of terrorism
>and local phenomenon has added on to the same and in this case Islamic
>terrorism, and 'all terrorists are Muslims' has been made the fodder
>of social thinking. As such, starting from Golwalkar, RSS's
>formulation that Muslims and Christians are threats to Hindu nation,
>to the present day, there is a consistent worsening of the level of
>demonization of minorities.
>
>These entire social phenomenons are raising a deeper question related
>to our democracy. Democracy not only ensures that are citizens are
>treated equally it also stands for giving affirmative action for
>weaker sections of society. As such the litmus test of democracy is
>the welfare and security of minorities. Here we see that as to how the
>marginal stream which came up during freedom movement and kept aloof
> from it, the Hindutva vehicle, RSS, has been successfully working,
>using the democratic space to abolish, precisely the democratic values
>which gave it a space to stand. While totally defamed after Gandhi
>murder by one of its followers, its acceptability began with
>Jayapraksh Narayan letting it run the movement, which led to emergency
>and later formation of Janata Party. RSS began by spreading hate
>against Muslims and Christians, formulated by its founders and penned
>by its ideologue, M.S. Golwalkar. Golwalkar instructed that Muslims,
>Christians and
>  Communists are the threat to Hindu nation. The RSS shakhhas kept
>spreading this ceaselessly and it became a part of social common sense
>over a period of time.
>
>RSS also planted its swayamsevaks in different walks of social and
>political life, education, media, police, bureaucracy etc. Once its
>political child, Jana Sangh became part of Janata party, it ensured
>that large number of swaymsevaks become part of media establishment.
>And later during NDA regime, this game of theirs' had a field day.
>Capping these efforts through Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, social
>engineering got intensified in Adivasi areas. With US administration
>coining the word 'Islamic terrorism' and that propaganda that
>Madrassas are the dens of training terrorists; RSS completed its
>indoctrination module.
>
>The deadly poison it spread against minorities first spread hate and
>created divides in the communities, leading to 'hate other', which in
>turn forms the base of communal violence. Communal violence in Indian
>context gets assistance from the communalized state apparatus,
>sections of police in particular leading to polarization of
>communities and rise to political power of the communal party. The
>conveyer belt begins from demonizing other and leads to the RSS's
>political child becoming politically strong. That's how a political
>party which managed two seats in parliament in1984 elections has
>become formidable electoral force today, knocking the democratic
>values and imposing the religion based nationalism.
>
>Though not in power in center, its machinations are polarizing the
>society all over, creating divisions in the society, rampaging the
>rule of law and paving the way for creeping  fascism. What is
>happening today is reminder of how things happened in Germany, with
>Hitler leading the carnage. Beginning with hate Jews and then
>Christian minorities, then Communists and trade unionists paved the
>way for the stifling atmosphere of fascism, authoritarian state with
>social base. Today we seem to be helplessly watching a similar
>situation. While RSS combine is behaving like a rampaging bull,
>Bajrang Dal planting bombs, its workers carrying arms openly,
>distributing trishuls en masse, the state ruled by so called secular
>combine, UPA alliance seems to be a helpless observer, as the whole
>machinery itself seems to be affected by the communal virus.
>
>Where do we go from here? Opposition to this fascist politics,
>fighting it tooth and nail cannot be postponed by a single minute. The
>time has come that all those believing in democracy and welfare of all
>need to come together and put and end to the politics of hate. Popular
>front at social and political level is the need of the day. The power
>seeker political formations may not look beyond their personal gains
>but the social movements need to put the pressure in the right
>direction for these political people to hang together before we are
>hanged separately. It is not just a question of opposition to one
>political formation. The question is can we let the RSS version of
>Hindusim destroy the Kabir and Gandhi version of Hinduism and
>religion? The question is can we let the innocent minorities be the
>scapegoats for the fascist politics to keep on going? Should we let
>the democratic space be usurped by those wanting to bring in a nation
>state in the name of
>  religion?
>
>Whether India will nurture the values of freedom movement and strive
>for human rights of all depends on us, as in no time in past the very
>concept of democracy has been stifled as much as we are witnessing
>today.
>
>--
>Issues in Secular politics
>
>October 2008 II
>
>ram.puniyani@ gmail.com
>www.pluralindia. com
>
>Can be circulated/publishe d/translated etc.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530
> From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik
>To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>Message-ID:
> 	<6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol
>
>check here - http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235
>
>--
>Aditya Raj Kaul
>
>Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/
>Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:31 +0530
> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter
> 	Bamiyan,	the HinduKush and Kakrak
>To: reader-list at sarai.net
>Message-ID:
> 	<47e122a70810231041kdffedc5pbf9b424ae6f18904 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>Dear All
>Just returned from  JNU ( Arts Aesthetic Dept.) after listening the
>lecture presentation by Prof. Deborah.
>
>It was very interesting presentaion from all perspectives.  The most
>impressive thing was about the use of Oil  by Artists in Bamiyan on
>the surface while executing images of Buddha.
>
>To say so, she said, it was possible only after a Japanese scientist
>had done a extensive research on the painted layers in Bamiyan
>The use of masks on the carving on the 55 meter tall carvings was
>monumental in the valley of Bamiyan during 7th century, along with
>other painted caves. The presence of coins similar to masks and other
>urns and images was breathtaking. She showed how Shivasitic traditions
>had come from Indian via Kashmir before and after and dominated the
>Hindu Kush valley. The Turks indeed ruled nearly for 200 years and the
>coinage of that time significantly depicting the use of Roman script
>as well.
>
>The elongaged ears, which we are familiar with Shiva was quite visible
>on the painting of Buddha in Bamiyan.
>
>Having said, thins, one only regrets the Anglo American policies in
>this region which have resulted into the destruction of the
>magnificent art works,
>
>love
>is
>
>On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Dean School of Arts and Aesthetics
><aesthete at mail.jnu.ac.in> wrote:
> > School of Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University
> >
> > Thursday, 23.10.08, 4pm
> >
> > Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter Bamiyan, the Hindu Kush and
> > Kakrak
> >  Klimburg-Salter has published widely on Buddhist art of the Himalayas
> > and Central Asia. She is Professor for Asian Art History at the
> > University of Vienna, Director of the National Research Network "The
> > Cultural History of the Western Himalaya from 8th Century", President of
> > the European Association of South Asian Archaeology (EASAA) and a Member
> > of the UNESCO International Coordination Committee (ICC) for the
> > safeguarding of Afghanistan's Cultural Heritage since its inception in
> > 2003. This lecture is held in connection with the special course on
> > Gandhara and Afghanistan in collaboration with the Institute of AdvaAc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
>--
>
>http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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>End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 127
>********************************************