[Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]
Tapas Ray
tapasrayx at gmail.com
Sun Oct 26 06:29:56 IST 2008
hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have
followed my arguments.
we wi wrote:
> Tapas,
>
> >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or even
> mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its practice.
>
> Good words n great recognition. Practice makes one perfect. You should
> not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion. If you are
> celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some
> god what is that? If you are chanting names like
> tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the
> poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India? what about the
> sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you
> offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that? If some body die
> then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what
> about them and what for they? From birth to death and after death
> everything is linked. This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND
> HOLY SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA.
>
> As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas. You
> are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a
> way of performing dharma. , You are not sufficient enough to comment
> about the Hindu dharma and ram.
> The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did
> tat way.
> If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to
> understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma.
>
> coming back on CASTE.
>
> Krishna in geeta says
> 1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha!
>
> 2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata
> abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham!
>
> not only that if we take other instance from lalitha sahasranama,
>
> 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini"
>
> like this i can quote many
>
> Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas
> only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I
> dont wish to define. Its all with time
> Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and
> have knowledge.
>
> Regards,
> Dhatri.
>
>
>
> --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray /<tapasrayx at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM
>
> It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah is.
> My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, because
> the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's
> occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing,
> because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well
> documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not have
> been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon
> themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the Hindutva
> agenda.
>
> That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed to
> all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not above
> casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their
> rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the
> saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate
> people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – Aditya's
> own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it
> difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits
> stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their
> plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics.
>
> Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles wide of
> the mark.
>
> > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction
> > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit
> > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind,
> > are the foundation of Hinduism.
>
> Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism and
> what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only
> scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble
> deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the heterogeneity
> of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World Hindu
> Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a
> solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this:
> anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity of
> one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi (basil)
> plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria.
>
> What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is
> not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the belief
> of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by
> reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on account
> of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion
> is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very major
> way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus,
> the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from school
> textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go to
> school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If
> anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based
> killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees in
> many areas.
>
> When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one
> must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas
> in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George
> Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white people,
> not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that the
> caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are very
> harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. There
> is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram
> cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been
> practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of
> Brahmins.
>
> Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves only
> one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the Sangh
> Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate casteism or
> other harmful practices.
>
> Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the
> assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads.
>
>
> Tapas
>
> Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:
> > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah …
> >
> > SECTION – I
> >
> > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism
> >
> > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures
> > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does
> > not permit any caste system, whatsoever.
> > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of
> > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity
> > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire
> > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste
> > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig
> > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve
> > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness,
> > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and
> > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here.
> > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet
> > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All
> > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all
> > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3-
> > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and
> > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf.
> > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of
> > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly
> > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel.
> >
> > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas
> > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka
> > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all
> > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX
> (29)
> > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures,
> > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord
> > resides in him.
> >
> > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to
> 'select' (one's
> > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth-
> > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon
> > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four
> > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his
> > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita
> > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and
> > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in
> > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of
> > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every
> > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their
> > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will
> > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the
> > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat
> > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any
> > caste system or birth based caste system.
> > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority
> > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human
> > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate
> > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo
> > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma)
> > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever
> > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail
> > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly)
> >
> > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not
> > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a
> > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic
> > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were
> > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who
> > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin
> > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat
> > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system
> > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well
> > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those
> > days as compared to other civilizations.
> >
> > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present
> > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British
> > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the
> > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such
> > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta
> > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because
> > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the
> > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance
> > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese
> > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the
> British and
> > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule
> > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only
> > sometime in 1800 AD."
> >
> > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of
> > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not
> > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low
> > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from
> > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed
> > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided
> > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their
> > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near
> > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101)
> > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in
> > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste.
> > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India
> > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian
> > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality
> > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are
> > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe?
> > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used
> > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao
> > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group
> called
> > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the
> > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and
> > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and
> > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and
> > fraudulent methods.
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