[Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord

Sat Sep 6 14:00:01 IST 2008

If there is a living encyclopedia on Kashmir, it has to be Shuddha.
If that makes you happy.....

Wonder why you go into a "maun vrat" when likes of Murtaza give a distorted
picture about Kashmir or does that fit into your agenda....????/

Pawan Durani

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:

> Dear Rashneek,
>
> Many thanks for pointing out how poor my knowledge and understanding
> of either history or politics in Kashmir is. I am always willing and
> open to learn.
>
>  Its just that I have noticed, whenever I point something out, the
> argument from your quarter does not take the substance of what I say
> into account, and launches into a tirade against anti-nationalism and
> other pet hates. I remember, very precisely, that in reply to any of
> my posts, be they on the history, or the politics of your homeland, I
> am never met with a rebuttal based on what I have said. Even your
> long four part missive (in reply to my equally long four part
> missive) about the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir, actually did not
> take on board the substance of any of the points I had raised.
> instead, you merely repeated, as your are wont to do, ad nauseam, the
> very same things that you and some of your colleagues always say, and
> which I was trying to criticise. I had genuinely wished that your
> response to my criticism would bring to bear something of the
> intelligence that I believe you are capable of, even if in an
> adversarial manner. I was disappointed.
>
>  There was no attempt at introspection on the fact that for
> instance, a claim that all iconoclasm had only one source (which was
> the purport of your arguments) was both disingenuous and misleading.
> It was an opportunity for you to have made your own case stronger, by
> not having to rely on a deeply distorted and one sided reading of a
> contentious history. You chose, unfortunately not to do that. What
> suffered, as a consequence, was your own cause.
>
> Here too, with this posting on Noorani's reading of the so called
> Amarnath Accord, I see a repetition of the same. No one has made an
> attempt to actually refute what he is saying. All that has been done
> is - a bad mouthing of him - saying he is sympathetic to pan
> Islamism, (without attributable quotations). It is not enough to say,
> as Lalit Ambardad says, "In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he
> was no different...Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir", for
> us to trust such a statement, we need to know an exact verifiable
> quotation, with a date and a time. Anything else is a malicious rumour.
>
> Even if he were sympathetic to Pan-Islamism in Kashmir, it would
> still not do to dismiss his ethical, legal and constitutional
> arguments by saying that he is. The only way to refute such an
> argument would be to show that the ethica,  legal and constitutional
> positions he is taking are flawed. And this would have to be
> demonstrated, logically, in exactly the same manner as he
> demonstrates why the accord is flawed. Anything else, only amounts to
> your opinion, and I have no reason to trust that opinion.Even if the
> devil says 2+2=4, we cannot say, no it isn't, just because it is the
> devil that says so. George Orwell, in '1984', had sketched out a
> possibility of situations when societies find it convenient to have
> people say 2+2=5. I find, to my horror, that you and many other
> Indian nationalists often approximate a shrill rhetorical suppleness
> that is deeply reminiscent of '1984'.
>
> I have been considerably restrained on this list in the face of
> repeated personalized provocation, only because I think that
> responses to such provocations end up degrading the quality of our
> discussions. I find it deeply unfortunate that you, Aditya Lalit,
> Chanchal and Pawan, when pushed to the wall by arguments, have
> nothing other than abuse to offer. As I have said before, even your
> own cause demands better behaviour from you. And certainly, this list
> expects that you will consider very carefully your own conduct.
> Remember, this is a public record. It is archived. Someday, people
> will dig all this up, and then you and your conduct on this list, may
> appear very very shallow.
>
> regards,
>
> Shuddha
>
>
>
>
>
> On 06-Sep-08, at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher wrote:
>
> > All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of
> > either
> > history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries
> > (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring
> > his posts
> > on Kashmir.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rashneek
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> > <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different.
> >> Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir.
> >>
> >> On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the
> >>> Kashmiri
> >> pan
> >>> Islamists & their cause.  He ran a campaign series in support of the
> >>> separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has
> >>> chosen to
> >> call
> >>> Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as
> >>> 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -
> >>> bara -e
> >>> -Islam" as 'victims' says it all.
> >>>
> >>> Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New
> >> Delhi/May
> >>> 8, 2007)  in  his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al-
> >>> Qeada
> >>> affiliate LeT. In a  bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief
> >>> allegedly
> >>> assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India
> >>> for talks
> >>> (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very
> >>> day Hafeez
> >>> Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of
> >>> terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to
> >>> carry on
> >> the
> >>> 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/
> >>> May8'
> >> 07/
> >>> page no.13).
> >>> LA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From:
> >>>> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> >> To:
> >>> shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re:
> >>> [Reader-list]
> >>> Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> >  >
> >>>
> >> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?
> >> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1>
> >>>>
> >>>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> >> wrote:>
> >>>> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>> Subject: Re:
> >>> [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath
> >>> Accord> To:
> >>> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha at sarai.net>> Cc: "Sarai list" <
> >>> reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07
> >>> PM> >
> >>> Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir
> >>> Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here
> >>> is the
> >>> correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >
> >>> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for
> >>> pointing this
> >>> out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata
> >> Sengupta
> >>> wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of
> >>> hunger for
> >> land
> >>> unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India.
> >> Captains
> >>> of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more
> >>> interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata
> >>> mentions
> >> the
> >>> burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god,
> >>> inaugurating a
> >>> long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It
> >>> appears as it
> >>> we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha
> >>> continues.>
> >>>>
> >>>> Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated
> >>>> about> >
> >> the
> >>> land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front>
> >>> > is
> >> intent
> >>> on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur
> >> (where
> >>> again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic
> >>> corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to
> >>> do with
> >>> state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of
> >>> either
> >>> cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> >
> >>> 'gated' and
> >>> 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin
> >>> around the
> >>> 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra
> >> Sangharsh
> >>> Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears
> >>> to grant
> >> a
> >>> limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer
> >> reading
> >>> of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this
> >> 'accord'>
> >>> are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the
> >>> substance
> >> of>
> >>>> the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am
> >>> enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal
> >>> historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An
> >>> Immoral
> >> and
> >>> Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir
> >>> newspaper
> >>> today. It is available on line at -> >
> >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> >
> >>> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the
> >>> terms of
> >> the
> >>> Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before
> >>> on this
> >> list
> >>> (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun
> >> Salutes
> >>> for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>> - the
> >>> anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary
> >>> acquisition of
> >> land -
> >>> I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the
> >>> equivalent of
> >> one> >
> >>> in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of
> >>> the> >
> >> Armed
> >>> Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in>
> >>> > this
> >>> context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of
> >>> land)
> >> is
> >>> not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in
> >>> my> >
> >>> estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal
> >>> and> >
> >>> unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> >
> >> worsens
> >>> the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the
> >>> reasons
> >>> that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be
> >> viewed
> >>> as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and
> >>> undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic
> >>> blundering
> >> on
> >>> Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that
> >> urgently
> >>> requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> >
> >>> ====================================================================
> >>> == >
> >>>
> >>> ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> >
> >> Greater
> >>> Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2:
> >>> The
> >> accord
> >>> between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath
> >>> Yatra
> >>> Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the
> >>> government's order
> >>> only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS
> >>> concessions
> >>> beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an
> >>> abject
> >>> surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The
> >> differences
> >>> between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >>
> >>> > 1. The
> >>> order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in
> >> which
> >>> both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely
> >>> ignores
> >>> Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was
> >>> represented. A
> >>> week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top
> >>> leaders were
> >>> arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the
> >>> word
> >>> "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and
> >>> threaten
> >> to
> >>> wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded
> >>> in the
> >>> early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government
> >>> "shall set
> >>> aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the
> >>> land in>
> >>>
> >>> Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> >
> >> cloaked
> >>> under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual
> >> yatra
> >>> purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the
> >>> Pahalgam
> >> route.
> >>> The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the
> >>> Army and
> >>> Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if
> >>> the
> >> limit
> >>> of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This
> >> violates
> >>> the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move
> >>> freely
> >>> throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even
> >>> in May
> >> 2008
> >>> or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using
> >>> the yatra
> >> for
> >>> political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The
> >>> duration of
> >> use
> >>> is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first
> >>> says
> >> that
> >>> the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra"
> >>> including the
> >>> period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has
> >> these
> >>> sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to
> >>> the
> >>> Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the
> >>> following".
> >>> There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the
> >> sheds
> >>> and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period
> >>> "from
> >> time
> >>> to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be
> >>> all the
> >> year
> >>> around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall
> >> return"
> >>> to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes
> >>> S.K.
> >>> Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also
> >>> dropped
> >>> totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is
> >>> Para 6. An
> >>> undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and
> >>> Para 7
> >> on
> >>> payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious
> >>> provision
> >> in
> >>> accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely
> >>> "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc.
> >> Breach
> >>> entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1
> >>> July.
> >> The
> >>> accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the
> >> accord
> >>> has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest
> >>> (Conservation) Act
> >>> 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of
> >>> the
> >>> Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory
> >>> Committee"> >
> >>> constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any
> >>> forest> >
> >> land
> >>> or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".>
> >>> > The
> >>> earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >
> >> amendment
> >>> in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added
> >>> and made
> >>> mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different
> >>> from
> >> "J&K
> >>> Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law
> >>> intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This
> >>> Council can
> >>> come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case
> >>> the
> >> Forest
> >>> Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to
> >>> this new
> >>> accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was
> >>> given
> >> before
> >>> the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case
> >>> on 23
> >>> November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important
> >>> observations
> >> on
> >>> balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to
> >> consider
> >>> it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of
> >> opinion
> >>> of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general
> >>> Altaf Naik
> >>> both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The
> >> accord
> >>> lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> >
> >>> legitimacy. Any
> >> order
> >>> in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that
> >>> the state
> >>> should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including
> >> promise
> >>> to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of
> >>> compensation to
> >> the
> >>> Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already
> >>> begun asking
> >>> for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is
> >>> gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state
> >>> can
> >> thus
> >>> bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this,
> >>> what
> >> hopes
> >>> of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the
> >> raped
> >>> Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> >
> >>> ====================================================================
> >>> == >
> >>>
> >>> ==> > =======================> >> >> >> >
> >>> _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open
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> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata
> >>> Sengupta>
> >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective>
> >>> shuddha at sarai.net>
> >>> www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > >
> >>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rashneek Kher
> > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy
> > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> > _________________________________________
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>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
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