[Reader-list] The Azadi We Need

[Aarti Sethi]

Dear radhika,

If there is anyone on this list who has consistently demonstrated exactly
how much he invests in insaniyat it is Inder Salim. I would urge you to
desist from commenting on his faith and beliefs because I do not think you
have the capacity or desire to engage the complexity of how he defines
either. Finally, I think it is ridiculous to even make a statement like
earning wealth. How silly and stupid can you be? How dare you launch a
personal attack on someone you don't know except through his writing?

really, grow up

A

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 3:57 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:

> Really good thoughts, but the likes of Inder salim with hidden agenda of
> their faith do not understand, nor do they have the will to appreciate the
> way of life, insaniyath, of which they talk and earn wealth out such glib
> talks.!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Partha Dasgupta <partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com>
> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need
> To: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and
> > others.
> > We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history,
> > which won't
> > make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir
> > and a
> > burning Jammu at odds with each other.
> >
> > Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and
> > can't recourse
> > to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part
> > of goes
> > into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from.
> >
> > What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can
> > be done.
> >
> > Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free'
> > Kashmirwill never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn
> > apart by the
> > militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point,
> > 'AzadKashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied
> > Kashmir'. Look at
> > Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks.
> >
> > So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done.
> >
> > I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they
> > are Muslim
> > or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called
> > yesterdayto ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of
> > the fact that some
> > were Muslims.
> >
> > This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if
> > that's what
> > you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan &
> > others on
> > the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for
> > peace & life
> > instead of hate and defeat.
> >
> > Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I
> > certainlywant the police checks in Delhi so that my children can
> > go safely. Sure, I
> > had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have
> > that than
> > my family's life being endangered.
> >
> > What's your case?
> >
> > You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day
> > come back
> > home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as
> > ridiculous as
> > the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point.
> >
> > All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if
> > we do not
> > raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as
> > agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the
> > breaking of
> > Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts.
> >
> > It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own
> > minds as to
> > what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd.
> >
> > Rgds, Partha
> > .....................
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim
> > <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > History is a strange past. If  Nepal was under British rule,  Sardar
> > > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from
> > > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or
> > > just another state by the name Nepal District;  with its erestwhile
> > > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a
> > matter of
> > > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful
> > > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no
> > hesitation to
> > > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of
> > achieving> it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but
> > Terrorism.>
> > > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a
> > matter of
> > > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free
> > Nation that
> > > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ).  It had all the
> > > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal
> > > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims.  No one has an answer, what
> > ruined> the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that
> > even now,
> > > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the
> > > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal
> > > is a free country and why  Kashmir is not.  We know dreams,
> > after a
> > > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while
> > > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very
> > > funnily.
> > >
> > > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy
> > > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are
> > > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then
> > Sanjay, I
> > > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal
> > about> the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique.
> > If one
> > > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that
> > > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite
> > > different from what is being written in urdu or in English.  It is
> > > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New
> > Kashmir in
> > > Kashmiri.  The language will itself oust the hardliners. The
> > terrible> face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know,
> > fortunately or
> > > unfortunately, we are wedded to  History which is known to all
> > of us.
> > > But that is not all, most of us know that,  but cant do much about
> > > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve.
> > >
> > > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and
> > nothing> beyond.  And as Ronald Barthes  writes, there is nothing
> > which is
> > > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree,  but deep down,
> > > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People
> > > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that
> > Nepal is
> > > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials.
> > But as
> > > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only
> > > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically,
> > > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making
> > things> worst for the core meaning of  Kashmiriyat ( the word,
> > prostituted by
> > > the  State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although
> > > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve
> > that for
> > > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would
> > suffice> ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made
> > it impossible
> > > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We
> > > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those
> > > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western )
> > > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the
> > > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which
> > can be
> > > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They
> > > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed.
> > >
> > > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for
> > removal> of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of
> > dignity in the
> > > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society
> > > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk
> > about> the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of
> > Indian Tri
> > > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also
> > > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir
> > >
> > > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't
> > remember> who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of
> > doubt in the
> > > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of '
> > > safray azadi'.  To unravel the unpredictable of the present we
> > have no
> > > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All
> > > calculations might collapse.   I  just am trying to emancipate
> > myself> more on the subject : Kahseer
> > >
> > > With love
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak
> > <kaksanjay at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The
> > Azadi We
> > > Need"
> > > >
> > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1>
> >
> > > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of
> > interest in
> > > the
> > > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in
> > synch with
> > > the
> > > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous
> > contours of
> > > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our
> > part of the
> > > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh...
> > > >
> > > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many
> > writers in
> > > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have
> > > visualised a
> > > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have
> > been able to
> > > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and
> > filled the
> > > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic
> > Nation.> > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political
> > leaders of the
> > > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has
> > spoken of
> > > the
> > > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are
> > other elements
> > > in
> > > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open
> > > question
> > > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan,
> > Malaysia, Syria,
> > > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case
> > that what
> > > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be
> > taken as
> > > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi?
> > (Especially> > when most people who draw these conclusions are
> > also the first to
> > > question
> > > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!)
> > > >
> > > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving
> > so giddily
> > > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation
> > that these
> > > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable
> > situation> > there, but really about our anxieties about
> > ourselves. (Here I use "our"
> > > for
> > > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so
> > Indians,> > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.)
> > > >
> > > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public
> > discourse, the G
> > > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief,
> > > Jaitirath
> > > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them).
> > > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however
> > sophisticated the
> > > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary
> > Kashmiri" is
> > > evoked,
> > > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad
> > > Kashmir–one
> > > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its
> > > sleeve–will
> > > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and
> > to India's
> > > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the
> > aspirations of
> > > a
> > > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People
> > were promised,
> > > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to
> > be part of
> > > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist
> > Democracy> that
> > > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never
> > enthusiastically> > embraced the geographical entity that bounds
> > that ideal!
> > > >
> > > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the
> > Nation State,
> > > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I
> > tended to
> > > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to
> > meet the
> > > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he
> > calls the
> > > Azadi
> > > > We Need.
> > > >
> > > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent
> > Kashmir for
> > > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the
> > experience of the
> > > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are
> > appallingly> inhuman"
> > > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says
> > that "nothing
> > > in
> > > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up
> > > anything
> > > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional
> > > nation-state
> > > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a
> > different> result",
> > > > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims
> > at. He is
> > > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning,
> > but to
> > > "resist"
> > > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into
> > the monster
> > > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six
> > Blind Men
> > > of
> > > > Hindustan, and the Elephant?
> > > >
> > > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free
> > and fearless
> > > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of
> > > occupation,
> > > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what
> > the movement
> > > > aims at.
> > > >
> > > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed
> > there are
> > > > those within the movement who casually think of such an
> > entity, then they
> > > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments
> > Mohajir> > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of
> > people in the valley,
> > > the
> > > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It
> > still> means
> > > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into
> > everyday> life.
> > > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership
> > that they
> > > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir
> > could be like.
> > > But
> > > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of
> > Indians–must> > also take on board our complicity in a system that
> > has not allowed any
> > > form
> > > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just
> > since 1989
> > > when
> > > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades
> > before that.
> > > >
> > > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative
> > that they can
> > > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose
> > the tattered
> > > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their
> > > struggle
> > > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the
> > repression they have
> > > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand
> > the perils
> > > of
> > > > the Nation State they must cease to resist?
> > > >
> > > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment
> > > fluffing
> > > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the
> > Intelligence Bureau
> > > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit
> > Ganguly and Kanti
> > > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles
> > all over the
> > > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying
> > > Standard
> > > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the
> > > following:
> > > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations?
> > Since India has
> > > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead,
> > and No
> > > Major
> > > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then.
> > No case
> > > for
> > > > Azadi.
> > > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it?
> > > >
> > > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on
> > the same
> > > shelf
> > > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together
> > > because
> > > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end
> > up the way
> > > WE
> > > > want it, so lets just wait and watch".
> > > >
> > > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have
> > taken in the
> > > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu
> > Mahasabha? The
> > > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?.
> > > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself
> > under the
> > > > weight of its own contradictions.
> > > >
> > > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least
> > twenty–if not
> > > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance,
> > political> > correctness, and theoretical purity.
> > > >
> > > > This may not be The Azadi They Need.
> > > >
> > > > Sanjay Kak
> > > > _________________________________________
> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Partha Dasgupta
> > +919811047132
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > list
> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>