[Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised

[radhikarajen at vsnl.net]

Great secular thoughts indeed, this is what exactly made us tolerent hindus.!

----- Original Message -----
From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:53 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Cc: Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>, sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>

> Radhika. Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. Quiet. Do Not Speak. You 
> embarrass and
> insult yourself.
> 
> regards
> A
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:26 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> 
> > Aarti,
> >
> >  in the incident of inquiry and then shoot out at police 
> officer, then the
> > action of self defence ending in killing of the terror accused, 
> is seen by
> > all in the nation. Any right thinking citizen would have also 
> noticed that
> > to enter jamianagar, the lawkeepers can not go in uniform. They 
> have to go
> > only in mufti even for inquiry. Subsequent develpments of large 
> force of RAF
> > and additional police presence shows the community in poor light 
> in so far
> > as this community is law unto themselves.
> >
> >   I have lived in jamia nagar larn the finer aspects of religion 
> of islam,
> > for my assignment abroad, and I know for sure, this jamianagar 
> has dirty
> > underbelly of the community which has the lots of sex workers 
> from Bihar, UP
> > and even bangaldesh. It has car thieves, anti-social elements 
> and also rich
> > leaders who arrange the man/woman power for shouting slogans for 
> the party
> > which pays for the work. If mother of all sacrifices has an 
> occassion to
> > showcase her sacrifice the slogan shouters are from jamianagar. 
> Worst, law
> > keepers can not get any credible information of terror infested, 
> indoctrined> brains from this area, because the residents feel 
> they have islamic rue
> > there, not indian constitution, for duties to the nation. Only 
> for rights
> > they have to invoke the constitution, not for duties.
> >
> >  Every laws are broken, bent in jamia nagar, building laws are not
> > existing, police is seen as "hindu" plice, officials are "hindu 
> officials.>
> >  Well If mahatma had known all this, he definitely would not 
> have agreed
> > for the stay of these in India for harmonious living.!
> >   All said and done, there are few good muslims there in jamia 
> nagar, who
> > have tolerent view, but alas, they are even in majority are 
> scared of the
> > geelanis and madams who have brothels running these with the 
> help of goons
> > of islam.
> >  Regards.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:02 am
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised
> > To: Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >
> > > Dear Lalit,
> > >
> > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical"
> > > grounds that the
> > > law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence
> > > linking him
> > > to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent
> > > is a
> > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to 
> hang him
> > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you
> > > will be
> > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty
> > > central to
> > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for
> > > you to
> > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved.
> > > It has not
> > > been proved. There is no evidence at all.
> > >
> > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again 
> -
> > > terror,whether by agents acting against the state and terror by
> > > the state are
> > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront
> > > each other
> > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is
> > > which and
> > > who is whom?
> > >
> > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to
> > > suspendour sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name
> > > of national
> > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake 
> encounters,> > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on 
> suspicion, rape -
> > > so that we
> > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that
> > > haunt us.
> > >
> > > best
> > > Aarti
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar
> > > <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > By the way, this 'guy' was  released  on 'technical grounds'
> > > only. Even one
> > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get
> > > him relieved
> > > > of this tag. And  yet, he continues with his diatribe 
> against India.
> > > >
> > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused
> > > lot. Here,
> > > > they  espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism
> > > in Kashmir &
> > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the
> > > 'land' & 'the
> > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very
> > > land' in
> > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying
> > > 'crush India'.
> > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are
> > > welcome to
> > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the  mobile
> > > citizens'> theory- you could still love the land (even if one
> > > ignores that
> > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not
> > > posses it.
> > > > Regards all
> > > > LA
> > > >  p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' &
> > > 'anarchy' can
> > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in
> > > >         Kashmir since 1989-90.
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500
> > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir
> > > criticised> >
> > > > > Aarti,
> > > > >
> > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and
> > > rights too
> > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility
> > > also to the
> > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and
> > > rights. in fact
> > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties.
> > > Without duties
> > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave
> > > as any
> > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in
> > > society, it is
> > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to
> > > individuals> to be free.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can 
> not be
> > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society
> > > in which she
> > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic
> > > then she has
> > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not
> > > on the
> > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she
> > > lives in
> > > > >
> > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, 
> and as
> > > activist> of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in
> > > society when he
> > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground
> > > floor plan of
> > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect
> > > nor a civil
> > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may
> > > acquit him
> > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain
> > > apprehension, because
> > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that
> > > go on in
> > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform 
> for the
> > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of
> > > muslims> sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the
> > > nation feel sorry
> > > > for ntire community and look with disdain.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir
> > > criticised> > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi
> > > <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com>, sarai list <
> > > > reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Nazneen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my 
> post> > > > > again. I used
> > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. 
> Can you
> > > > > > love land
> > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with 
> which you
> > > > > > have no
> > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously 
> this is
> > > > > > both an
> > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to 
> Kashmir,> > > > > does this
> > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course 
> not! The
> > > > > > question is
> > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father
> > > went> > > on a
> > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of
> > > > > > childhood is
> > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible
> > > snowscapes and ice
> > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for
> > > many years.
> > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into 
> the earth
> > > > > > some million
> > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is
> > > part of
> > > > > > the common
> > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with.
> > > As far
> > > > > > as I am
> > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative
> > > way to
> > > > > > think of
> > > > > > land.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional
> > > > > > 'ownership' over
> > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special
> > > > > > entitlement to the
> > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose
> > > land> > > and whose
> > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country
> > > - in
> > > > > > singur, in
> > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - 
> where people
> > > > > > are asking
> > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to 
> their own
> > > > > > land in the
> > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is 
> it not?
> > > > > > Because the
> > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an 
> entitlement. All
> > > > > > land is the
> > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we
> > > ask these
> > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out
> > > these> > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such
> > > a claim, I
> > > > > > do not feel this
> > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement 
> is where
> > > > > > violence is
> > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to
> > > collapse> > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They
> > > are not the same
> > > > > > thing.
> > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do
> > > with the
> > > > > > area per
> > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being 
> facetious at
> > > > > > all. The only
> > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for 
> granted the
> > > > > > logic of the
> > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity 
> for a
> > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this 
> territory.> > > > > This is the first
> > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And 
> you are
> > > > > > right, the
> > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask
> > > > > > ourselves whether
> > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer 
> discussion and
> > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may
> > > discuss it
> > > > > > if you wish. But just
> > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage 
> of the
> > > > > > whole world as
> > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my
> > > home" and
> > > > > > i think
> > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are
> > > several> > > ways in
> > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems 
> to be
> > > > > > logic of
> > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and 
> affection> > > > > into the
> > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any 
> persons or
> > > > > > forms of life
> > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and
> > > boring> > > for me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
> > > > > > Aarti
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <
> > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Aarti,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a 
> civilization? For
> > > > > > that matter,
> > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal 
> continuity> > > > > and a concept,
> > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude 
> love for
> > > > > > land? As far as
> > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide
> > > which> > > fiction of
> > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile 
> concept, and
> > > > > > whats wrong
> > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to
> > > do so
> > > > > > is I think
> > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a 
> minor> > > > > virus and hope
> > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous
> > > isn't it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nazo
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi
> > > > > > <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>wrote:>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable
> > > > > > element of
> > > > > > >> India's
> > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental
> > > > > > principles on
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming 
> national> > > > > will as a
> > > > > > >> > critical
> > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious
> > > > > > adversaries" have
> > > > > > >> > resorted
> > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national
> > > will.> > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years
> > > > > > constitute a
> > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this
> > > question is
> > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow
> > > naive> > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian',
> > > whatever> > > that is, have to be
> > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think
> > > so. Our
> > > > > > >> imaginations
> > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. 
> And in
> > > > > > fact they do,
> > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in 
> school. We
> > > > > > are so
> > > > > > >> willing
> > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', 
> but that
> > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The
> > > march of
> > > > > > history does not
> > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to 
> Nehru, as if
> > > > > > 2,000 years
> > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian
> > > > > > nation'. Why is
> > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically
> > > > > > produced units
> > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of 
> no value
> > > > > > or that they
> > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must
> > > have no
> > > > > > investment>> in
> > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the 
> nation. There
> > > > > > is nothing
> > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking
> > > these> > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.
> > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's 
> future> > > > > and its
> > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and
> > > hard> > > about how
> > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good 
> question, it
> > > > > > would help us
> > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think
> > > > > > creatively at this
> > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can
> > > relate to
> > > > > > India.>> There
> > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list 
> itself.> > > > > Various kinds
> > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things 
> can be
> > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as
> > > > > > "seditious" is no way to
> > > > > > >> go
> > > > > > >> anywhere.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> best
> > > > > > >> A
> > > > > > >> _________________________________________
> > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the 
> city.> > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations
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> > > > > > >> List archive: 
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> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _________________________________________
> > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > > with> > > subscribe in the subject header.
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> list/>> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________
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