[Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised

Sat Sep 20 19:07:52 IST 2008

Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be.
Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. If you run
out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its better you
take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called scholarly
jhollahwaalah.

We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy it; then
kindly take it offline. Grow Up...!

Love
Aditya Raj Kaul

On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Aarti,
>
> This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a
> general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is
> wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them?
> What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep
> the
> official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of
> view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of privilege
> to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing
> discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant
> emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any nation
> can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone.
> Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or a
> Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic
> scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors.  So much so
> that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer
> exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war
> if
> not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of
> wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think
> 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The state
> as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not
> have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but
> nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of
> identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever
> fractured
> or precarious it may be.
>
> Regards
>
> Nazo
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Lalit,
> >
> > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or
> > said
> > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left
> > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this list.
> > The
> > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow
> and
> > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of
> attachment
> > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order.
> >
> > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the
> > connections in your response.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we
> all
> > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical
> > grounds'
> > > only.
> > >
> >
> > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes
> are
> > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or phrase.
> So
> > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is no
> > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even
> > though
> > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER
> grounds
> > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on technical
> > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there
> is
> > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am
> > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really
> > quite
> > simple in this case.
> >
> > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must
> have
> > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of things
> > we
> > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience.
> >
> > best
> > Aarti
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530
> > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised
> > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Lalit,
> > >
> > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds
> that
> > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence
> > linking
> > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent
> is
> > a
> > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him
> > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will
> be
> > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty
> central
> > to
> > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to
> > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has
> > not
> > > been proved. There is no evidence at all.
> > >
> > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again -
> terror,
> > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are
> > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each
> > other
> > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which
> and
> > > who is whom?
> > >
> > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to
> suspend
> > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national
> > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters,
> > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so
> that
> > we
> > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt
> > us.
> > >
> > > best
> > > Aarti
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar <
> > lalitambardar at hotmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > By the way, this 'guy' was  released  on 'technical grounds' only. Even
> > one
> > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him
> > relieved
> > > of this tag. And  yet, he continues with his diatribe against India.
> > >
> > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here,
> > > they  espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in
> > Kashmir &
> > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' &
> > 'the
> > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in
> > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush
> > India'.
> > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are
> welcome
> > to
> > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the  mobile
> > citizens'
> > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that
> > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it.
> > > Regards all
> > > LA
> > >  p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can
> > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in
> > >         Kashmir since 1989-90.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500
> > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised
> > > >
> > > > Aarti,
> > > >
> > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights
> > too
> > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to
> the
> > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in
> > fact
> > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without
> > duties
> > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any
> > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society,
> it
> > is
> > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to
> > individuals
> > > to be free.
> > > >
> > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be
> > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which
> > she
> > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she
> > has
> > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the
> > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in
> > > >
> > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as
> activist
> > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he
> > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor
> plan
> > of
> > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a
> > civil
> > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit
> > him
> > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension,
> > because
> > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on
> in
> > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the
> > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims
> > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel
> sorry
> > > for ntire community and look with disdain.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised
> > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com>, sarai list <
> > > reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Nazneen,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post
> > > > > again. I used
> > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you
> > > > > love land
> > > > > without possessing it? That is the question.
> > > > >
> > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you
> > > > > have no
> > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is
> > > > > both an
> > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir,
> > > > > does this
> > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The
> > > > > question is
> > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went
> > > > > on a
> > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of
> > > > > childhood is
> > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and
> > ice
> > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many
> years.
> > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth
> > > > > some million
> > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of
> > > > > the common
> > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far
> > > > > as I am
> > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to
> > > > > think of
> > > > > land.
> > > > >
> > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional
> > > > > 'ownership' over
> > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special
> > > > > entitlement to the
> > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land
> > > > > and whose
> > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in
> > > > > singur, in
> > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people
> > > > > are asking
> > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own
> > > > > land in the
> > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not?
> > > > > Because the
> > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All
> > > > > land is the
> > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these
> > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these
> > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I
> > > > > do not feel this
> > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where
> > > > > violence is
> > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse
> > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same
> > > > > thing.
> > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the
> > > > > area per
> > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at
> > > > > all. The only
> > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the
> > > > > logic of the
> > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a
> > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory.
> > > > > This is the first
> > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are
> > > > > right, the
> > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask
> > > > > ourselves whether
> > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...
> > > > >
> > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and
> > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it
> > > > > if you wish. But just
> > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the
> > > > > whole world as
> > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and
> > > > > i think
> > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several
> > > > > ways in
> > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be
> > > > > logic of
> > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection
> > > > > into the
> > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or
> > > > > forms of life
> > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring
> > > > > for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > Aarti
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <
> > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Aarti,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For
> > > > > that matter,
> > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity
> > > > > and a concept,
> > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for
> > > > > land? As far as
> > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which
> > > > > fiction of
> > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and
> > > > > whats wrong
> > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so
> > > > > is I think
> > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor
> > > > > virus and hope
> > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nazo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi
> > > > > <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>wrote:>
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable
> > > > > element of
> > > > > >> India's
> > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental
> > > > > principles on
> > > > > >> which
> > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national
> > > > > will as a
> > > > > >> > critical
> > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious
> > > > > adversaries" have
> > > > > >> > resorted
> > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years
> > > > > constitute a
> > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question
> is
> > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive
> > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever
> > > > > that is, have to be
> > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our
> > > > > >> imaginations
> > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in
> > > > > fact they do,
> > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We
> > > > > are so
> > > > > >> willing
> > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that
> > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of
> > > > > history does not
> > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if
> > > > > 2,000 years
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian
> > > > > nation'. Why is
> > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically
> > > > > produced units
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value
> > > > > or that they
> > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no
> > > > > investment>> in
> > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There
> > > > > is nothing
> > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these
> > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.
> > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future
> > > > > and its
> > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard
> > > > > about how
> > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it
> > > > > would help us
> > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think
> > > > > creatively at this
> > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to
> > > > > India.>> There
> > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself.
> > > > > Various kinds
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be
> > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as
> > > > > "seditious" is no way to
> > > > > >> go
> > > > > >> anywhere.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> best
> > > > > >> A
> > > > > >> _________________________________________
> > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > >> To unsubscribe:
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________
> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> > > > > list
> > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________
> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only
> > on
> > > MSN News Check it out! <http://news.in.msn.com/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on mergers,
> > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!<
> > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp>
> > >
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>