[Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet

inder salim indersalim at gmail.com
Wed Sep 24 20:00:30 IST 2008 

Dear  Mr. Kaul sahib
it takes some courage to speak the truth.

1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they equal ?

2  are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or   SICHT
(tailors)?

 3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .

Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes.  Why are they all from
muslims cpmmunity?

How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
in kashmir. You are a proud  kashmiri  pandit, right, but what about
these facts, have guts to answer.

yes,  when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished  secular
values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
reflections on the List.

but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
you, to none.

love
is



On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
<kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Inder Salim,
>
> You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter ate, so stop
> talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri Pandits.
>
> You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use Tickoo.
> "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading disinformation.
>
> Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions and is trying to
> appease a particular community.
>
> Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
>
> God Be with you.
>
> Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would love to take this
>> discussion ahead...
>>
>> Let me put in blunt way:
>> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed existence
>> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for Jesus birth
>> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of Greece even
>> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant by X-Mas... no
>> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and December.. meaning
>> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month), Nav is 9 (but
>> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but December is 12th
>> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus X-Mas is 10th Month
>> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in December... Part of
>> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu Calendar..
>> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one knows.. it is derived from
>> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of Chrisn...
>> As world has always produced good and bad minds, some Mr. Paul, who had
>> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and maligned Chrisn Nity
>> to Christianity....
>> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions, all the words
>> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this interpretation, everything
>> suddenly becomes meaningful..
>>
>> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and death... there is
>> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of controversy... bad and
>> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as texts for the
>> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole world is now moving
>> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also kill... this has
>> become the practice...
>> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also worshiping Idols at
>> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and hidden inside the
>> black stone..
>>
>> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
>> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them before the wall
>> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship beautifully
>> carved structure of stone
>> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty, HIndus want them to
>> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings representing the creation of
>> GOD. but both require this temple place..
>> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus worship timelessly
>> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any direction...
>>
>> My question is:
>> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting on it then... Do
>> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not worship.. If they do
>> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
>> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
>>
>> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of worship....  Let
>> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and Christianity also in
>> their scope of attack...
>>
>> love
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
>>
>>
>> Dear Chanchal,
>>
>> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear  political ambition to
>> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny at times.
>> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in comparison
>> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to no end.  Let us not
>> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit community, on this
>> pretext or that.  You know perhaps, but he will himself come out and
>> speak, just wait...
>>
>> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to talk about
>> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha. This is
>> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when she/he starts
>> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an Elephant's
>> Head on Human  body, it looks  disproportional and unaesthetic, so the
>> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the most sacred
>> composition, when there are thousand other surreal images in Hindu
>> iconography,  It is very normal for  Hindu believers to see sexuality
>> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate  Krishan from his
>> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which represents
>> Male and Female fertility...
>>
>> there are one million  MF  Hussains,  much better than HUssains,
>> already exiting in Hindu iconography,  I dont see there is a need to
>> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography.   That is
>> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can happen
>> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is not the case with
>> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away from  a synagogue
>> or a  church to speak on sexuality and its relevance in society.
>> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on chemicals
>> and mathematics.  Decorative art can come only from such a society.
>> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography, which is not
>> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what about
>> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly indicates  that
>> there is an endless  desire to talk about sexuality. And besides that
>> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in different
>> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics demolish them or burn
>> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and nothing is
>> happenning in islamic world .
>>
>> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within Islam, but
>> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense, we will
>> get nothing but 'hurt'
>>
>> Both the ends of world have come out with their  own ways of living,
>> and that is it.
>>
>> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing were
>> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish cartoon were equally
>> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
>>
>> That is why   we need to be careful to see what they both are doing.
>> I know some  Chruchs  indulge in this kind of publication, to  tease
>> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in  their  system of
>> of belief,  the Hindu Religion,  then it wont nurture hate in their
>> hearts.  But we  listen to  a Parveen Tagodia,  a would be parveen ,
>> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery ,  And in Mumbai where
>> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they began to drive
>> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
>>
>>
>> love
>> is
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
>> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And Hindus will not get
>> > angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry when these
>> things
>> > are highlighted against them and used to break them from their faith..
>> > By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include some stories of
>> > Muhammad as well?
>> > If you could do this, as we and the whole world already know many, your
>> > metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your metaphor again
>> is
>> > meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
>> > Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy discussion...
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
>> >
>> > thanks pawan ji  for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
>> >
>> > for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will take these
>> > details of these characters as real. The illiterate and poor Hindus of
>> > India are simple believers.  People  who know how to manipulate these
>> > simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just their axe
>> > to grind.
>> >
>> > Metaphors:- for example,  Veda Vyasa  of Mahabarata was grand father
>> > of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic is such that
>> > if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is illegitimate , the
>> > war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize there is
>> > nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we  resolve the conflict,
>> > which was fought fo good against bad.
>> >
>> > Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of coming to life.
>> > Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by Paravati from the
>> > dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband was not
>> > around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind, because Parvati is
>> > Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life on her own.
>> > It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary surrounded by
>> > domestic animals only,  No fuss. But if someone  will point out that
>> > Rama's father was believer of  polygamy, it might look offensive to
>> > some of Hindus.  It all depends who is saying and who is listening.
>> >
>> > A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman, like an
>> > illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other child.
>> >
>> > I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to speak freely on
>> > other religious characters as well,  but that might be not be easy
>> > because some of  the believers blend history and faith too intensely.
>> > I see no gain in that, but that becomes a dangerous zone to enter,
>> > unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by horns. choice
>> > is yours.
>> >
>> > Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics with
>> > temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has a deep
>> > past...good to feel.
>> >
>> >
>> > with love
>> > is
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
>> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>> >> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts" and thus equate
>> >> them.
>> >>
>> >> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers of this
>> >> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading communal
>> >> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to court, arguing for a ban
>> >> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The writers and
>> >> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded guilty. The court
>> >> could have decided the issue according to the law of the land laid
>> >> down by the Constitution of India.
>> >>
>> >> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in their own
>> >> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law irrespective of what
>> >> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn either or both
>> >> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its own course,
>> >> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of violating the
>> >> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice delivery that we
>> >> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations. Bringing the
>> >> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds of fanatics
>> >> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist
>> >> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
>> >>
>> >> best
>> >> shivam
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the following
>> contents.
>> >>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the pamphlet as well as
>> >>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the answer to a
>> nonsense
>> >>> in
>> >>> a educated society.
>> >>> However the people who incited this through distribution of pamphlets
>> >>> need
>> >>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
>> >>> this unpleasant situation
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************
>> >>>
>> >>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi – the daughter of Narayana– is a prostitute.
>> >>> Vashitha
>> >>> is the son of this prostitute.  He in turn married his own
>> Mother.  Such
>> >>> a
>> >>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
>> >>>
>> >>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of hell,
>> how
>> >>> can he enlighten others?  Since  **Krishna** himself is a shady
>> >>> character,
>> >>> there is a need for us to  liberate his misled followers. (page 50)*
>> >>>
>> >>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita.  Since Brahma,
>> >>> Vishnu
>> >>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to consider
>> >>> them
>> >>> as Gods. (page 39)
>> >>>
>> >>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva)
>> are
>> >>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others.  Their
>> >>> projection
>> >>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
>> >>>
>> >>> buse No.5:  Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did so.
>> >>> How
>> >>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe?  How is it
>> >>> possible
>> >>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be gods?
>> >>> (page
>> >>> 39)
>> >>>
>> >>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of **India** who
>> are
>> >>> worshipping False Gods  that believe in the pleasures of  illicit
>> >>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
>> >>> _________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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>>
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