[Reader-list] On Sarai postings
Nazneen Anand Shamsi
nazoshmasi at googlemail.com
Wed Sep 24 23:31:48 IST 2008
Dear Radhakrishnan,
I completely empathize with your 'anguish' but one has to bear in mind
that what you construe as 'unwarranted personal attacks and slander'
is nothing but one of the ways to carry to public conversations.
Unfortunately for you and some of the other fourteen hundred members
Sarai reader-list, is a 'NON-MODERATED' public platform.
Members of Sarai community will never, pay heed to your gentle plea,
to do something, about its state of affairs. Sometimes I feel that the
studied patience on behalf of Sarai community is based on an
assumption that this torrent of invectives and profoundly abusive
nature of language will average itself out in the long run. I wonder
at the resoluteness of Sarai admin to communicate with us through a
silence that is indeed poetic.
I take Radhakrishnan's mail as an opportunity to urge all list
members, to write to Sarai admin, to come up with some form of formal
rules of engagement with punitive measures.
Best Regards
Nazo
On 24 Sep 2008 16:48:58 -0000, Radhakrishnan <krishnanrr at rediffmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Folks!
> I want to express my anguish about the level of debate and unwarranted
> personal attacks and slander. in fact I had raised similar issues through an
> email to Shuddha. I am making these observations with with deep regret,
> since I have high regard for Sarai as a platform for raising and debating
> significant issues. But since some months there has been a tendency to mock,
> and even write responses which at times very patronizing and condescending.
> They are not only Delhi centric but remain impervious towards the site of
> conflict – perhaps it's an urban centric perspective which doesn't take the
> real India in account while pontificating on such issues. So there is a
> greater need to exercise caution and as well display sensitivity while
> debating issues significant to our day to day existence.
>
> Secondly mocking at an institution of learning just for the fact that 2-3 of
> its students are suspect displays utter callousness. Prof Mushirul Hasan the
> Vice Chancellor of Jamia had undergone avery humiliating and agonizing
> experience of not being allowed inside his university premises for a
> considerable time. His only guilt was that he had taken an unequivocal stand
> in favour of democracy and freedom of speech, when he questioned the
> rationale behind banning Rushdie's controversial book. So kindly refrain
> from the mudslinging and senseless campaign.
>
> Radhakrishnan
>
> PS: the copy of my mail to Shuddha --
>
> Dear Mr.Shuddhabrata Sengupta,
> I have been a subscriber of the Sarai newsletter/mail since around six
> years.
>
> I just wanted you to kindly take into consideration certain developments
> which I have noticed over the last two years in the sarai mails.
>
> 1 - There has been an attempt to create a hierarchy and to an extent
> conformist opinion that certain issues are sacrosanct and be at the centre
> of most of the debates for ex the crisis in Jammu & Kashmir, events and
> developments in Delhi, while very significant develoments in the Northeast,
> even sporadic developments in Orissa, West Bengal, and other places are
> relegated to the margins.Its not to question the prominence given to some
> particlar issues but seek inclusion of other significant issues.
>
> 2 - There has been not only very fascinating but has been very educative and
> stimulating exchanges at times on issues of nationalism, what constitutes a
> nation and debating about the nation building exercise in India and
> elsewhere. But what has been missing has been the non inclusion of various
> actors or constituents in the discourse. There hasn't been any significant
> attention towards the plight of the marginalised section ie, Dalits,
> Adivasi,linguistic and religious minorities, their location and plight
> within the nation, the role of the state and its selective intervention or
> for that matter the erosion of the 'welfare state'. Sarai needs to transcend
> the Delhi centric response or reflections even in terms of emotional and
> intellectual response.
>
> 3 - It has often been found that the zones of conflict - northeast, regions
> down the vindhyas don't find adequate mention nor description, when there
> are debates on serious issues, which have an impact of the lives and securty
> of the vast sections of the society - rise of non military threats, the new
> developments in the study of globalisation, nationalism, secularism, social
> justice, the rise of regressive/primordial movements, information
> revolution, environmental movements or questioning the development paradigm
> etc.
>
> I am subject to correction if you feel my observations are misplaced. I look
> towards your valuable guidance and intervention in this regard.
>
> Thanking You
>
> With Regards
>
> R.Radhakrishnan
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote :
>>Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
>> reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> reader-list-request at sarai.net
>>
>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>> reader-list-owner at sarai.net
>>
>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
>>
>>
>>Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Radhikarajen's food habits (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
>> 2. Re: Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
>> (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
>> 3. Re: What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet (inder salim)
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:11:58 +0500
>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
>>To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in
>>Cc: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>Message-ID: <e4d2b8128f32.48da82ee at vsnl.net>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>Behen Fathima,
>> I urge you to go thru the post again, where have I referred any faith ?
>> I was only talking about the kebabs, and tamasik and sathwik foods, be it
>> a shivamvij in the hospitality of separatists, or mothers who talk of
>> innocence of their sons in terror acts. is it a case of what is commonly
>> known in kannada as Kumbalakai kalla, undre hegalu mutti nodida. ( when
>> some one remarked that a theft has taken place, another touched his
>> shoulder to check for stolen guard.)
>>: )
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>> From: फ़ातिà¤(R)ा Fatima <sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in>
>>Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 4:11 pm
>>Subject: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
>>To: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>
>> > Dear Radhikarajen
>> > First you referred to Muslims as meaty kabab-eaters. Now you say:
>> > the more one eats tamasik food the more is the interest to be in
>> > the violence. I just found the following definition for tamasik:
>> >
>> > "tamasic food is stale, dry, bad smelling, distasteful or
>> > unpalatable. It increases pessimism, ignorance, lack of common
>> > sense, greed, laziness, criminal tendencies and doubt."
>> >
>> > Well, fresh meaty kebabs (ummm!) are world's tastiest, juiciest,
>> > good-smelling food that elevate spirits, provide the required
>> > proteins, fat and other body requirements - yes it does increase
>> > laziness, and greed (for more kebabs). But criminal tendencies?
>> > Yes as much as criminal emotions as lauki, bhindi and tori would
>> > provide.
>> > With your definition, a famous 5-star hotel's "The Great Kebab
>> > Factory" is where all terrorists are being trained.
>> > Do you have the statistics of how much meat is being eaten by the
>> > non-Muslim world - it will blow your mind.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on
>> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> > list
>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Message: 2
>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:14:41 +0500
>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be
>> prosecuted
>>To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>Message-ID: <e211e4da99e9.48da8391 at vsnl.net>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Unfortunately, this attitude and action of the institutions and NGOs which
>> makes them communal. It only gives more courage to be fundamentalists in
>> secular society be it for a hindu or a muslim or a christian, if you have
>> support to be fanatic why not. !
>>
>>Regards.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:55 am
>>Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
>>To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>
>> > Jamia Millia University should be
>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>> >
>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>> > *
>> >
>> > **
>> >
>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty," varsity
>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>> >
>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>> > .
>> >
>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
>> > provide legal
>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>> > guilty or
>> > not guilty.
>> >
>> > Its powers are very clear.
>> >
>> > Please visit the following link for more -
>> > Jamia Millia University should be
>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>> >
>> > PTI reports
>> >
>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>> > *
>> >
>> > **
>> >
>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty," varsity
>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>> >
>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>> > .
>> >
>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
>> > provide legal
>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>> > guilty or
>> > not guilty.
>> >
>> > Its powers are very clear. -
>> > Jamia Millia University should be
>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>> >
>> > PTI reports
>> >
>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>> > *
>> >
>> > **
>> >
>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty," varsity
>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>> >
>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>> > .
>> >
>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
>> > provide legal
>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>> > guilty or
>> > not guilty.
>> >
>> > *Unless of course the University wants to make the argument that
>> > providinglegal aid to Terrorists is providing a facility to
>> > promote "national
>> > integration, secularism and international understanding",
>> > Offstumped demands
>> > the Union HRD Ministry to pull up the University Officials for
>> > acting way
>> > beyond what the law provides for, failing which they must face
>> > prosecutionfor aiding and abetting terrorism.*
>> >
>> > Its powers are very clear. -
>> > http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-millia-
>> > university-should-be-prosecuted/
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>> > list
>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Message: 3
>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:00:30 +0530
>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>> Pamphlet
>>To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>Message-ID:
>> <47e122a70809240730o2121e1ddj57e89fa3ec71c5d6 at mail.gmail.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>>Dear Mr. Kaul sahib
>>it takes some courage to speak the truth.
>>
>>1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they equal ?
>>
>>2 are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
>>and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or SICHT
>>(tailors)?
>>
>> 3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
>>Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
>>
>>Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
>>street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes. Why are they all from
>>muslims cpmmunity?
>>
>>How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
>>in kashmir. You are a proud kashmiri pandit, right, but what about
>>these facts, have guts to answer.
>>
>>yes, when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
>>arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
>>You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished secular
>>values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
>>reflections on the List.
>>
>>but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
>>you, to none.
>>
>>love
>>is
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>><kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Inder Salim,
>> >
>> > You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter ate, so
>> > stop
>> > talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri Pandits.
>> >
>> > You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use Tickoo.
>> > "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading disinformation.
>> >
>> > Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions and is trying to
>> > appease a particular community.
>> >
>> > Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
>> >
>> > God Be with you.
>> >
>> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >
>> > On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would love to take
>> >> this
>> >> discussion ahead...
>> >>
>> >> Let me put in blunt way:
>> >> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed
>> >> existence
>> >> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for Jesus birth
>> >> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of Greece even
>> >> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant by X-Mas...
>> >> no
>> >> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and December..
>> >> meaning
>> >> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month), Nav is 9
>> >> (but
>> >> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but December is 12th
>> >> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus X-Mas is 10th
>> >> Month
>> >> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in December... Part
>> >> of
>> >> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu Calendar..
>> >> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one knows.. it is derived from
>> >> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of Chrisn...
>> >> As world has always produced good and bad minds, some Mr. Paul, who had
>> >> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and maligned Chrisn
>> >> Nity
>> >> to Christianity....
>> >> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions, all the words
>> >> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this interpretation,
>> >> everything
>> >> suddenly becomes meaningful..
>> >>
>> >> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and death... there
>> >> is
>> >> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of controversy... bad
>> >> and
>> >> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as texts for
>> >> the
>> >> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole world is now
>> >> moving
>> >> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also kill...
>> >> this has
>> >> become the practice...
>> >> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also worshiping Idols
>> >> at
>> >> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and hidden inside
>> >> the
>> >> black stone..
>> >>
>> >> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
>> >> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them before the
>> >> wall
>> >> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship
>> >> beautifully
>> >> carved structure of stone
>> >> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty, HIndus want them
>> >> to
>> >> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings representing the
>> >> creation of
>> >> GOD. but both require this temple place..
>> >> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus worship
>> >> timelessly
>> >> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any direction...
>> >>
>> >> My question is:
>> >> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting on it then... Do
>> >> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not worship.. If they
>> >> do
>> >> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
>> >> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
>> >>
>> >> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of worship.... Let
>> >> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and Christianity also
>> >> in
>> >> their scope of attack...
>> >>
>> >> love
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----
>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear Chanchal,
>> >>
>> >> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear political ambition to
>> >> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny at times.
>> >> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in comparison
>> >> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to no end. Let us not
>> >> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit community, on this
>> >> pretext or that. You know perhaps, but he will himself come out and
>> >> speak, just wait...
>> >>
>> >> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to talk about
>> >> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha. This is
>> >> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when she/he starts
>> >> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an Elephant's
>> >> Head on Human body, it looks disproportional and unaesthetic, so the
>> >> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the most sacred
>> >> composition, when there are thousand other surreal images in Hindu
>> >> iconography, It is very normal for Hindu believers to see sexuality
>> >> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate Krishan from his
>> >> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which represents
>> >> Male and Female fertility...
>> >>
>> >> there are one million MF Hussains, much better than HUssains,
>> >> already exiting in Hindu iconography, I dont see there is a need to
>> >> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography. That is
>> >> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can happen
>> >> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is not the case with
>> >> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away from a synagogue
>> >> or a church to speak on sexuality and its relevance in society.
>> >> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on chemicals
>> >> and mathematics. Decorative art can come only from such a society.
>> >> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography, which is not
>> >> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what about
>> >> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly indicates that
>> >> there is an endless desire to talk about sexuality. And besides that
>> >> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in different
>> >> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics demolish them or burn
>> >> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and nothing is
>> >> happenning in islamic world .
>> >>
>> >> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within Islam, but
>> >> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense, we will
>> >> get nothing but 'hurt'
>> >>
>> >> Both the ends of world have come out with their own ways of living,
>> >> and that is it.
>> >>
>> >> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing were
>> >> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish cartoon were equally
>> >> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
>> >>
>> >> That is why we need to be careful to see what they both are doing.
>> >> I know some Chruchs indulge in this kind of publication, to tease
>> >> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in their system of
>> >> of belief, the Hindu Religion, then it wont nurture hate in their
>> >> hearts. But we listen to a Parveen Tagodia, a would be parveen ,
>> >> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery , And in Mumbai where
>> >> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they began to drive
>> >> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> love
>> >> is
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
>> >> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And Hindus will not
>> >> > get
>> >> > angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry when these
>> >> things
>> >> > are highlighted against them and used to break them from their
>> >> > faith..
>> >> > By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include some stories
>> >> > of
>> >> > Muhammad as well?
>> >> > If you could do this, as we and the whole world already know many,
>> >> > your
>> >> > metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your metaphor
>> >> > again
>> >> is
>> >> > meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
>> >> > Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy discussion...
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----
>> >> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>> >> > Pamphlet
>> >> >
>> >> > thanks pawan ji for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
>> >> >
>> >> > for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will take these
>> >> > details of these characters as real. The illiterate and poor Hindus
>> >> > of
>> >> > India are simple believers. People who know how to manipulate these
>> >> > simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just their axe
>> >> > to grind.
>> >> >
>> >> > Metaphors:- for example, Veda Vyasa of Mahabarata was grand father
>> >> > of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic is such
>> >> > that
>> >> > if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is illegitimate , the
>> >> > war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize there is
>> >> > nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we resolve the conflict,
>> >> > which was fought fo good against bad.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of coming to
>> >> > life.
>> >> > Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by Paravati from the
>> >> > dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband was not
>> >> > around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind, because Parvati
>> >> > is
>> >> > Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life on her
>> >> > own.
>> >> > It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary surrounded by
>> >> > domestic animals only, No fuss. But if someone will point out that
>> >> > Rama's father was believer of polygamy, it might look offensive to
>> >> > some of Hindus. It all depends who is saying and who is listening.
>> >> >
>> >> > A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman, like an
>> >> > illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other child.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to speak freely on
>> >> > other religious characters as well, but that might be not be easy
>> >> > because some of the believers blend history and faith too intensely.
>> >> > I see no gain in that, but that becomes a dangerous zone to enter,
>> >> > unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by horns. choice
>> >> > is yours.
>> >> >
>> >> > Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics with
>> >> > temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has a deep
>> >> > past...good to feel.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > with love
>> >> > is
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवà¤(R)à¥
>> >> > विजà¥
>> >> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>> >> >> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts" and thus
>> >> >> equate
>> >> >> them.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers of this
>> >> >> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading communal
>> >> >> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to court, arguing for a
>> >> >> ban
>> >> >> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The writers and
>> >> >> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded guilty. The
>> >> >> court
>> >> >> could have decided the issue according to the law of the land laid
>> >> >> down by the Constitution of India.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in their own
>> >> >> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law irrespective of
>> >> >> what
>> >> >> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn either or both
>> >> >> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its own
>> >> >> course,
>> >> >> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of violating
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice delivery that
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations. Bringing
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds of
>> >> >> fanatics
>> >> >> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist
>> >> >> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> best
>> >> >> shivam
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani
>> >> >> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the following
>> >> contents.
>> >> >>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the pamphlet as well
>> >> >>> as
>> >> >>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the answer to a
>> >> nonsense
>> >> >>> in
>> >> >>> a educated society.
>> >> >>> However the people who incited this through distribution of
>> >> >>> pamphlets
>> >> >>> need
>> >> >>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
>> >> >>> this unpleasant situation
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi â€" the daughter of Narayanaâ€" is a
>> >> >>> prostitute.
>> >> >>> Vashitha
>> >> >>> is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married his own
>> >> Mother. Such
>> >> >>> a
>> >> >>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of
>> >> >>> hell,
>> >> how
>> >> >>> can he enlighten others? Since **Krishna** himself is a shady
>> >> >>> character,
>> >> >>> there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers. (page
>> >> >>> 50)*
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita. Since
>> >> >>> Brahma,
>> >> >>> Vishnu
>> >> >>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to
>> >> >>> consider
>> >> >>> them
>> >> >>> as Gods. (page 39)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and
>> >> >>> Shiva)
>> >> are
>> >> >>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others. Their
>> >> >>> projection
>> >> >>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> buse No.5: Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did
>> >> >>> so.
>> >> >>> How
>> >> >>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe? How is it
>> >> >>> possible
>> >> >>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be
>> >> >>> gods?
>> >> >>> (page
>> >> >>> 39)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of **India**
>> >> >>> who
>> >> are
>> >> >>> worshipping False Gods that believe in the pleasures of illicit
>> >> >>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
>> >> >>> _________________________________________
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>> >> >> _________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
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>> >>
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>> >>
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>> >>
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>>--
>>
>>http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
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>>End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 186
>>********************************************
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