[Reader-list] Fw: What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.
subhrodip sengupta
sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in
Sun Apr 12 00:32:01 IST 2009
Isn't there something known as right to privacy. A Wiki analysis told me that marital status, health and residence property and more private information will be made available through a centralised database. Werent many of us dead against strip searching x-ray and other devices, (well one cant escape it lol) but police doing it before your eyes and gazing you,(if not now it'll be very soon at least with non-nationals I guess) day in and day out in the name of national security, well you can not roam about in the streets pick up people in name of 'Verification', the Question I'd put 'Security for Whom?' & who are the specific classes/creeds of people arguing for it and what are their vested interests beyond security per-se? Is India's corruption scenario competent to handle such issues. To be more elaborate I'd remember you for full 4 months the NIC's top priority cyber area -- the PMO's mail(protected by same technology) was infected (& probably
hacked), under such circumstances, will it be of any more use than an experiment? At such a huge cost. Election heat is on, and parties have suddenly embarked on 'Tuff decisions', but tuffness means not ruthlessness, I guess to me it's being strong and positive & I do not find a reason to inflict fear on citizens and vulnerable sections of society, the question I'll re-assert this 'feel-good' 'hi-tech'security(non-resident id is a big loop-hole, with police chowkies able to be bribed) is for the common man or whom?
Well, recent history brings to my mind Hon CM delhi,Sheila Dixits govt opposing carry id cards scheme? One presumably ensures that distribution will be more systematic. Moreover data must be taken only where it's relevant else people will have to suffer stiff positions & embarrasment at places of work etc. eg if id schemes reflect marks years etc to test intelligence there's a problem. Two things must be adhered to all 3 posts must contain 1 woman, When infoirmation is sought it's purpose must be inspected by a human rights, an intelligence and some medico, all of a very high stature interms of post and experience, the party & his or her legal counsell , witness remittal of any information trough a distinct trans id. madatory. Wiki calls it mission creep, while judicial review is excluded. Heavy Army is always used to maintain a regime but are we heading to strong dictatorship-like pattern(as Rss ex-chief wanted) either by idealogues or religious
people, modus-operandi in a democracy is create an enemy?
Do we deserve it? Clearly the poor understanding of issues at intellectual level, fear of rejection & election manifesto have created even a dead-line (when Rahul accused opposition of sitting in ac rooms and blaming, did he get a feel of what various sections of masses want(one should not simply add up numbers as a 60-40 decision, clearly across cultural and caste dimension they dont add up, & politicians have been playing with this fire for their own benefits & it's near. Id card system is good, it should get you all rights without multi-registration. Benifits are speed,compactness, & reduced clerical errors, & entry into technical era, as a security tool, Costs are high.
What do India's bloggers who were advised not to disclose very personal data on net(& yet they do) have to say about this. Are they that bold? Thanks for colourful discussion anyway, it's very important as it regards a private right!
________________________________
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
To: reader-list <reader-list at sarai.net>; Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 11 April, 2009 7:57:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.
Dear Taha
Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me that you completely alter the meaning and import of words.
Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my comments with greater clarity.
1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue.
1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments.
1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"?
1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"?
1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you.
1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine with me.
2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC"
2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position.
2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings.
2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines:
- issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border.
- political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution
- don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen
- insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument
- .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners
- 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad'
Muslims.
2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so."
While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine.
Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor."
Kshmendra
--- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote:
From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 10:05 PM
Dear Khsmendra
Thank you for your post.
Please allow me to reply with utmost sincerity the most well thought out and
valid points raised in your post.
1. In the mail below, you state-Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that
Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists.
In the mail, below the mail below, you state- I would have presumed that you
have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.. One of the premises on
which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists.
- So it seems that YES you did mean, inadvertently perhaps, that I support an
outrageous premise the MNIC would be used to help weed out terrorist, since
there seems to be no other person, in the recent past, who have consistently
posted on and about MNIC as I have.
And for the sake of clarity please allow me to state -I have never, I REPEAT, I
HAVE NEVER ever, uttered that MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists. That
would deplorable on my part.
2. You state- Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will
help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise.
That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as
so.
For confirmation :
http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html
I most humbly thank you for providing the link and I would be very grateful if
you could kindly go through the post and then share it with members of the
reader list, which reasonably proves, that I have indeed written a fantastically
imagined premise that 'MNIC is indeed needed to weed out terrorists'.
On earlier occasions, I have made everyone known that in so far as my position
on MNIC is concerned being an Indian citizen, if my government choose to provide
for a MNIC card, then I will also have one. But please rest assured in all
these four years, had I ever read, sensed or concluded by a cursory or a
detailed reading of papers related to MNIC, that MNIC is also going to be used
to weed out terrorists, then, I would have used every conceivable way to
reasonably argue against such a card. The reason being thus- A statement which
contends that, 'MNIC will be used to weed out terrorists' assumes, that
it is known to the members of the state, who all will reasonably come under the
category of 'Terrorist'. Thus any person who satisfies all the criteria
of being a 'Terrorist' may be reasonably granted the status of a
'Terrorist' but as we all know that 'Terrorist' is a highly
unclear category. There does not exist a clear definition of the term. There is
a lot of scope for categorical slippage. Therefore no government agency
anywhere in this world has thus far made an audaciously foolish proposal
to capture 'Terrorists' while using a biometric National identity
card. Although it may not be ruled that as far as the realm of fantasy is
concerned there might be exist many deranged officials out there who might be
thinking of subjecting the national identity card regime to such a use.
It gives me utmost satisfaction to know that there exists at least one person
on this list who is a regular reader of my posts, I, with, bowed hands am
grateful to you, however, I think, it would bring me all the more joy, if you
could, not only read but deduce reasonably, my rather inarticulate sketches on
the proposed Multiple purpose National Identity Card.
Warm regards
Taha
Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
> Dear Taha
> If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation on
the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it.
> You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that you
do not read what you yourself post.
> My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is
based is that it
> will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping."
> Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that
MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written and then decide
whether you are justified in the content and tone of your response to me.
> Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed
out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does
not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so.. For
confirmation :
http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html
> Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some preconcieved
notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent you from thinking or
speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine.
> I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every single
one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC fascinates me even as it
disturbs me.
> I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do exist in
the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the MNIC and the
"human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed Mind. Why waste
your time and mine.
> Kshmendra.
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/*
wrote:
>
> From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final
> frontier.
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>, "Taha
Mehmood"
> <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
> Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM
>
> Dear Kshmendra
>
> Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I
never
> mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also
that, had I
> mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly
reflected
> the said issue in detail.
>
> I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of
a
> 'terrorist' is formed.
>
> The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might
have
> interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them
in such a
> manner.
>
> Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which
might
> help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean
by MNIC. In
> this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of
specific
> examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears
as if, the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is
fundamentally
> unresolved.
>
> I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case
and to
> equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for.
Therefore
> could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would
exercise some
> restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships?
>
> Regards
>
> Taha
>
>
> Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
> > Dear Taha
> > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have
read your
> own postings on this List regarding MNIC.
> > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is
that it
> will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping.
> > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive"
technology
> also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping.
> > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood
/<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/*
> wrote:
> > > From: Taha Mehmood
<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the
final
> > frontier.
> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM
> > > Dear Kshmendra (and All)
> > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please
explain what has
> the
> > development of this new technology got to do with National
Identity
> Cards
> > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related
events. I
> would be more
> > than happy to benefit from your insights.
> > > Regards
> > > Taha
> > > > >
>
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
________________________________
Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here
Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
More information about the reader-list
mailing list